[JMab]

We could really do with his size and skills... but it would be difficult to get excited about. He'd probably just give us a couple less lottery balls, at most.

[diecast75]

true...he would never come here anyway...he wants to chase rings with his fat ass

[The Oracle]

Horford definitely has range to 15 feet.

[whoDean]

Horford has a good post-up game, when he gets the ball.

[Billl]

"Good post-up game" is probably a bit of an overstatement - serviceable, maybe? He'll finish if given the chance, but he isn't going to draw a double team. He's not someone you would run offense through, he's someone you need to get the ball to in scoring position. You can't just toss it to him and let him go to work - at least consistently.

[Kstat]

He has a good post up game on switches. He can't post up centers for shit.

His game is getting the ball out 10-15 feet away and either shooting mid range jumpers or putting the ball on the floor. Of course you'd never know that because the Hawks don't use him right at all.

He should be an all-star every year. He's wasted there.

[fredsue]

again I ask Kstat...since you run down anyone people mention is a center...who are the centers in the NBA that have a low post game

[Kstat]

This is off the top of my head, so i could be leaving some guys out.

I'm not sure what the point of the question is, though.

Greg Oden, Brook Lopez, Robin lopez, Chris Kaman, Dwight Howard, Nene, Jermaine O'Neal, Shaq, Roy hibbert, Emeka okafor, Kendrick Perkins, Spencer Hawes, Nenad Krstic, Deandre jordan, Dan Gadzuric, Andrew Bogut, Zaza Pachulia, Marcin Gortat, Marc Gasol, Brendan Haywood, Nene, Joel Przybilla, Nazr Mohammed, Demarcus Cousins, Andrew Bynam, Javale McGee, Eddy Curry

Since I'm being technical, there are PFs out there who I think could handle part time duty as low post centers (Gasol, Duncan, etc.), but I left them out.

[hack]

Nene? Gadzuric? LOL!

``Last I checked'', you gotta be able to catch the ball in order to execute a post move. Get Nazr off that list.

[Kstat]

I never said they were very good at it. I was simply asked to list low post centers.

The few times Nazr doesn't fumble the ball out of bounds, he actually has decent low post moves.

[hack]

And it exposes your whole argument. That's not a list of people who are better post scorers than Al Horford. That's a list of guys too slow to play PF, which Al Horford is not. Horford's not a real threat down there, but he's got a degree of competence at it which many on your list do not have. He's not averaging 15ppg on just feeds and putbacks.

[Kstat]

You completely misunderstood the argument if you thought that was the point.

[Kstat]

BTW, according to 82games.com, more than half of AL Horford's shot attempts are jumpers. He's a high post big that can also finish off the dribble and get garbage baskets. His low post game is a very distant 4th on his list of skills. It's an insult to his game to play him where he's not going to be able to maximize what he does best, as well as a waste of resources, because you're going to have to pay him.

[hack]

No, I understood it. You were asked for a list of post Cs, but the discussion exists because you insisted Horford isn't one.

That said, you aren't paying Horford to be a high-post big, even if it is true that he's better there than in the low post (an assertion I am not buying). You are paying him to be a defender and a rebounder first and foremost, and then you are asking him to be a complementary scorer. His money isn't going to be made on offense.

[Kstat]

He's not a good enough defender for you to be paying him that much to play defense. He can move his feet well and has some muscle, but at center he is very often overmatched defending the post.

He could very easily be an all-star every year if he was put in his rightful position and integrated into the offense. You could pick and roll people to death from 15 feet and in, because unlike Josh Smith he's actually a threat to catch and shoot.

[hack]

I think he's a pretty good defender. Maybe not gonna win multiple DPOYs, and I haven't amassed an Al Horford Library, but I've seen enough to say that.

[GC_STONES]

If Shaq goes to ATL - I wonder if we could pawn Horford away from the Hawks (since Josh Smith plays PF)... something like Tay + Stuckey for Horford - I'd jump on that.

ATL can then start

Shaq, Smith, Prince, JJ, Stuckey

we could have Monroe/Horford combo with Wallace and Villa as back up c/pf. Daye and Jerebko taking all the SF minutes.

[Kstat]

Originally Posted by hack

I think he's a pretty good defender. Maybe not gonna win multiple DPOYs, and I haven't amassed an Al Horford Library, but I've seen enough to say that.

Neither have I. I just know every time I see him against a 7-footer with a pulse, he has a lot of difficulty bothering shots, and more often than not, he needs a double team.

[Kstat]

Originally Posted by GC_STONES

If Shaq goes to ATL - I wonder if we could pawn Horford away from the Hawks (since Josh Smith plays PF)... something like Tay + Stuckey for Horford - I'd jump on that.

ATL can then start

Shaq, Smith, Prince, JJ, Stuckey

we could have Monroe/Horford combo with Wallace and Villa as back up c/pf. Daye and Jerebko taking all the SF minutes.

I'd love having Horford, but only if we're trading Monroe. It does us no good to have so much invested in a glut of PFs. Monroe and Horford would be like Gordon and Rip. They don't mesh on the floor at the same time.

[Billl]

How about we let Monroe play at least 1 minute of NBA ball before we say who he can or can't play with?

[Kstat]

His skills overlap Horford's. He's a better passer and Horford's a better rebounder. We can go over how effective Monroe's skills are at an NBA level when we see him in action, but his skill set is pretty obvious.

[GC_STONES]

Horford is a rebound, hustle, defense guy while Monroe is an offensive stud creator - they appear to be a damn good match.

They aren't 7 footers but both can play center or PF full time. I really don't understand how you can say Horford is a failure at center when he started for a contender Hawks team at center for the past few years.

I'll bet anything that Monroe ends up as a center when it's all said and done - true, once we get a legit starting big next to him; more than likely they'll interchange positions but Greg will be seeing plenty of minutes at center this year.

[Kstat]

They appear to be a damn good match, except when you consider Horford's place in any offense is on the elbow...which is also Monroe's place, and either one defending centers down low will get murdered.

It's like arguing Rip is a great shooter and Gordon is a great shooter, so they should mesh perfectly. A very, very superficial judgment.

[Dave Bing]

OKC has too many players under contract. Would you guys roll the dice on Bam Bam Mullens for, say, a first round pick protected? He's dumb but athletic. He's the Irish Setter of post players.

[whoDean]

There were only 6 NBA Centers who scored more than Horford last season, and 3 of those were within a point or two...Horford is upper echelon when it comes to offense from the Center position, including some good post ups.

[Kstat]

...and rock bottom in defending centers. Anytime he gets posted up, it either draws a double team, or Horford gets scored on. It isn't his fault though. His team is being run by morons. Rip Hamilton is a prety good defender, and if he had been playing SF his entire career, he'd be getting ripped for his defense as well.

Horford is a good offensive player who should be a lot better than he is. He gets about as many points from post ups as Rip Hamilton.

[hack]

Horford doesn't get murdered defending centers, save for the guys that murder everyone. He's not gonna shut down Howard or Duncan, but neither is anyone else.

[whoDean]

Originally Posted by Kstat

...and rock bottom in defending centers.

He had the best +/- on a playoff team, not sure how you can say hes a rock bottom Center at defense.

Atlanta Hawks NBA stats and data from 82games.com

[Kstat]

He's a good +/- because he is a very good player. Doesn't change the fact he's very underutilized, and is a defensive liability playing out of position.

[GC_STONES]

lol Bing!

re: OKC - they have 14 players under contract - isn't that right at the limit?

The Thunda' are in such a great position right now; they can contend with the roster they have yet Presti has so many assets to work with (expiring contracts on decent players, young studs on rookie deals, cap space) that the team can upgrade some time in the season with a trade or two.

re: Mullens, I'd throw a lottery protected 1st their way for BJ Bam Bam. The Thunder can also sit on him for another year of development since they have Collison and Aldrich at center as well as Ibaka and Green at PF. Their future is a Aldrich/Mullens combo at center and my guess is they bring in a stud PF at some point or Ibaka could raise his game (he looks like the real deal, great defender, effort, focus and can shoot the mid-range jumper).

[whoDean]

Originally Posted by Kstat

Horford is a good offensive player who should be a lot better than he is. He gets about as many points from post ups as Rip Hamilton.

Once again I question your statement, according to this Horford was top ten in the entire league at inside shot fg%, and this definitely isn't all tip-ins.

NBA Player Shooting Detail stats

[The King]

Horford gets zero love in this forum. That guy is legit and getting better and better every year since he knocked the nagging injuries. Listen to Whodini, he lives out there.

[Dave Bing]

They have 16 under contract. They signed Royal Ivey. DJ White or Kyle Weaver are said in the paper to be the ones most at risk. But they have Mullens too. He could be our new forum whipping boy for every missed rotation. We haven't had someone like that since... well, Kwame I guess. But no one that we really really hated since Darko.

[The King]

Horford is a very good man defender. It's one of the things he does best. He can defend, control the boards, get you some buckets and is a very good passer for a big man. People never talk about his passing, but he's very good in that department.

He's a double-double machine and works/plays hard every night. He's everything a team would want in a big man.

[The King]

That team would suck major ass without him, too. He can control the paint and that team doesn't have many defenders.

[Kstat]

He can control the paint so well that he isnt allowed to guard any decent center without a double-team.

[GC_STONES]

damn stats! whoDean putting in work for his hometown player lol.

seriously, beyond the illuminating stats whoD showed us here - just watching Horf play it's obvious that the guy is just a classic big man that can be moved around to cover the team's weaknesses. He can do it all for you - he's going to get big bucks next summer.

[hack]

Hey -- I've been plugging Horford since before he was drafted. I said he'd be the third-best player out of that draft, and with Oden so star-crossed Horford might end up the second-best.

He also has a very intangible glow about him -- leader, hardworker, great teammate. Repeat-champ in college. Nobody's untradeable if Horford's on the table.

[GC_STONES]

besides Monroe - I'd gladly give up any two pieces on our roster for Horford. I'm titilated at the thought of those two playing together for the forseeable future

[Kstat]

Al Horford averages 2-3 inside shot attempts per game that aren't layups or dunks. Let's not let logic interfere, though.

[Dave Bing]

Why is that bad again?

[Kstat]

He isn't a low post player. That's not a bad thing, but he needs another big that compliments him. Josh Smith is a perfect example of a player that doesn't. When one of them is going, typically the other one is taken out of the game, figuratively or literally. If you want Horford, and are willing to pay him like a star, then you'd better get a big next to him that will allow him to maximize what he does best, the least of which is doing work on the low block.

[hack]

I doubt that Shaq in his prime took more than 2 or 3 shots in the paint that weren't layups or dunks.

[Kstat]

....because his low post game actually consisted of dunking on people. That wasn't even a good attempt at twisting the argument.

[GC_STONES]

Horford is super efficient on offense - he maximizes the touches that he gets. JJ , J Smith, Marvin Williams, Crawford, they're all ball hog shot jackers. Horf just goes to work every night and gets his on offense when he can.

It's insane that you are saying he isn't a low post player. He's like the majority of elite bigs - they can play high post but also have great touch inside. They don't post him up a lot because Johnson, Smith and Crawford are the feature offensive guys.

[hack]

Originally Posted by Kstat

....because his low post game actually consisted of dunking on people. That wasn't even a good attempt at twisting the argument.

That's your most accurate post in this whole argument. But that kind of response is a forum regular, so no complaints. I get those all the time.

[Kstat]

Originally Posted by GC_STONES

They don't post him up a lot because Johnson, Smith and Crawford are the feature offensive guys.

yeah, because JJ, Smith and Crawford are such great low post players...just no room in the paint for little Al, huh?

[whoDean]

Originally Posted by GC_STONES

It's insane that you are saying he isn't a low post player. He's like the majority of elite bigs - they can play high post but also have great touch inside. They don't post him up a lot because Johnson, Smith and Crawford are the feature offensive guys.

Yeah, this is what I'm trying to say but you know Kstat, he'll never admit an opposing view has merit.

[whoDean]

Look, Woody's offense for the entire second half was to have Joe Johnson pound the ball for 20 seconds and then go one-on-one. There wasn't a lot of offensive sophistication there, including calling post ups for the team's most efficient post scorer, but when they did happen to dump the ball in to him he did the job and did it well.

[Kstat]

Al is a plus offensive player at any position, albeit his skills are maximized at the 4. The issue is teams go at him in the post, and he shouldn't have to handle those duties. He has no business guarding guys like Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynam, Andrew Bogut, etc. It breaks down the entire defense because you're forced to help him on every touch.