[Lou Stefanic]

So, Medz, your position is that it's far better for the helpless to be dead than mistreated or ignored? Using that same logic, couldn't we just kill all the impoverished sick people instead of providing them with inferior state-run health care? I just love the proponent of state-run health care warning about how awful state-run foster care happens to be.

Bing, it's not really an issue that I get all worked up about. I have a lot of friends who have adopted, and some have adopted special needs kids, so I tend to think that the ideal human response should be to try to find a loving home for everyone. If I ever have kids, it will most likely have to be through adoption, so that's a route that appeals to me. Personally, I'm not so certain where life begins, and all things being equal, I think the best approach is to err on the side of caution, so to speak.

[Dave Bing]

That sounds reasonable. It is not where I draw the line but it seems to embrace the fact that reasonable, moral and decent people can disagree.

[mn3]

Joe the Plumber, the spiritual leader of the Republican Party.

[ThaMaestro]

Originally Posted by hack

Dyno's point is an invitation to an interesting debate.

We will no matter what... through private insurance all of our premiums get effected because of people that neglects their own health.

[Medz]

So, Medz, your position is that it's far better for the helpless to be dead than mistreated or ignored? Using that same logic, couldn't we just kill all the impoverished sick people instead of providing them with inferior state-run health care? I just love the proponent of state-run health care warning about how awful state-run foster care happens to be.

There's a pretty massive difference between being "dead" or "killed" and never being born. We don't have funerals for miscarriages. So on that basis, I'm going to ignore the ridiculous analogy.

[Lou Stefanic]

I'm eating a triple-meat deep dish pizza right now. Pay up, sucka!

[fredsue]

"That is a woman's choice whether or not we make it legal and safe."
Why is that a woman's choice?
A parent can easily terminate a babies life well after it has been created so should we have hospital rooms where you can go beat your child to death in a clean and safe environment. Or should we provide simple injections.

[ThaMaestro]

Originally Posted by Medz

There's a pretty massive difference between being "dead" or "killed" and never being born. We don't have funerals for miscarriages. So on that basis, I'm going to ignore the ridiculous analogy.

Why don't we?

My wife and I just went through dealing with a miscarriage after seeking fertility treatments and when people mentioned the fact of them "at least not being with us long", that wasn't really a consolation for us. To this day it was one of the hardest things I've ever been through and I feel the loss everyday.

I struggled with conception question a lot during that whole fertility process and I'm still unsure of where I fall with that. I consider myself to be anti-abortion, but feel it's above me to judge anyone who so chooses that for themselves.

[Medz]

Dyno does bring up a good point - doctors at this point are encouraged to treat health problems, not prevent them. Pharmaceutical companies don't give them vacations for getting their patients to quit smoking or drop weight, they reward them for pushing overexpensive drugs that keep you unhealthy but alive enough to keep popping those pills. Depressed? Don't work out your problems, have some Xanax! You know you want a fix.

[fredsue]

"We don't have funerals for miscarriages."

We could not afford one at the time but I can tell you that our two miscarriages were very traumatic and did not go quietly into the night.

[Dave Bing]

That was a gross statement by Medz. But the point in there is that when the zygote is 8 cells, or 16, or 32, only the most extreme definitions of life call that a baby. Four months is a different degree. Third trimester yet another. If the definitions are personal though, doesn't that require choice? Reasonable accommodation for what is a public good should be made.

As for live children being suffocated or beaten, the analogy fails. Live people have clear rights and protections at any age.

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by Medz

Dyno does bring up a good point - doctors at this point are encouraged to treat health problems, not prevent them. Pharmaceutical companies don't give them vacations for getting their patients to quit smoking or drop weight, they reward them for pushing overexpensive drugs that keep you unhealthy but alive enough to keep popping those pills. Depressed? Don't work out your problems, have some Xanax! You know you want a fix.

You may have missed my point. A large part of healthcare has to do with the individual and the choices he/she makes during their life. A case can be made that it is not the moral responsibility of society to make good the bad choices an individual makes.

[Medz]

Why don't we? My wife and I just went through it after seeking fertility treatments and when people brought it up that at least they weren't with us for that long, it wasn't really a consolation for us. To this day it was one of the hardest things I've ever been through and I feel the loss everyday.

I struggled with conception question a lot during that process and I'm still unsure of where I fall with that. I consider myself to be anti-abortion, but feel it's above me to judge anyone who so chooses that for themselves.

I'm sure it was hard, but you were parents who wanted the child. You would have cared for it and given it a good home. A mother who wants an abortion either didn't want the child in the first place, or was not in a position to care for the child. In either way, she should have the choice to get rid of the child before it's born, or to give birth to the child and then make a decision to raise it or give it up. That decision shouldn't be forced upon her, when it's such a morally gray issue in the first place.

It's also quite hypocritical that the people who are most protective of the "life" of the unborn child are generally the most apathetic to the amount of death that goes on in the world due to war and hunger. You can't be pro-life and support the killing of innocent civilians as "collateral damage".

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by fredsue

"We don't have funerals for miscarriages."

We could not afford one at the time but I can tell you that our two miscarriages were very traumatic and did not go quietly into the night.

My wife's sister did indeed have a funeral for her miscarriage.

[Dave Bing]

But who determines who is a responsible steward for their body? Can you imagine the liabilities? African Americans are more predisposed to diabetes. Some through diet, some through genetics. What is your plan there? I'm following a low carb, high protein diet. What if we find out later that I am actually killing myself? My fault? No care? And quitting smoking is no joke. It's not just a choice. It's a killer addiction. I know cancer patients on oxygen who can't quit. They are not crazy daredevils. Just junkies.

[fredsue]

That is a a very good point Bing. Whose responsibility is it?

[Medz]

I wasn't trying to belittle a miscarriage, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. I can't imagine how difficult that would be for someone to go though. I was just trying to (awkwardly) make the point Dave made, that you can't equate a fetus (at certain stages) to a living baby, and that anywhere from 50%-75% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, usually without the woman ever knowing she was pregnant. Still, it probably wasn't worded properly, so I do apologize.

[fredsue]

Originally Posted by DYNOMITE

My wife's sister did indeed have a funeral for her miscarriage.

We thought about it but decided to have our own personal (just my wife and I) time to reflect and grieve would be wiser for us at the time.

[ThaMaestro]

I wasn't offended Medz..

[ThaMaestro]

I have strong feeling on abortion without having a strong stance on it.

It's really above my paygrade.

[fredsue]

Originally Posted by Medz

I wasn't trying to belittle a miscarriage, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. I can't imagine how difficult that would be for someone to go though. I was just trying to (awkwardly) make the point Dave made, that you can't equate a fetus (at certain stages) to a living baby, and that anywhere from 50%-75% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, usually without the woman ever knowing she was pregnant. Still, it probably wasn't worded properly, so I do apologize.

I was not offended either.

I can understand (do not agree with) some of the arguments. But at like 12 weeks I believe all organs are formed...gets real tough to listen to any arguments after that point.

[Medz]

I actually don't disagree with that entirely . Somewhere between the 12th and 20th weeks, I begin to change my opinion on the issue, in which case abortion should probably only be an option to protect the life of the mother, or some extenuating circumstance arises. Making it illegal across the board, however, is not the best solution.

[fredsue]

Medz

I would personally think it still wrong and would most likely argue for it across the board but as a law coming from government I can see a reason for a compromise similar to that.

[JMab]

The world is already grossly overpopulated by humans as it is - do we really need to force our women to take pregnancies they don't want to full term? Think of the (already born) children!!!

[Lou Stefanic]

The real problem is that people are living longer thanks to advances in health and medicine. It's all of these unproductive old people that are a drain on our system. With the vast overpopulation, do we really want to make health care that much more available?

There comes a point where we really need to clear out the old growth for the new growth. By age 60, you're almost certainly using more than you produce. I'm in favor of clearing them all out, unless of course, they can make a successful run to Sanctuary.

[bozo the clown]

How dare us question God's will to populate the Earth in a carpet of trillions and trillions of squirming humans by interfering with the reproductive process by using birth control, pills, abortions, even condoms -- which murder billions of sperm that, I remind you, have a full complement of haploid genes. Put two sperm together and you'd have a copy of daddy.

If you doubt the will of the sperm to survive, check out this site...

Dr. Lindemann's Sperm Facts

Every time you jack off, you murder 100 million potential humans.

[fredsue]

"force our women "

I am sure that will win out with the ladies....

If my wife were to read this forum....I can not nor do I try to force my wife, my partner in life to do anything....

ok since she doesn't read this
I tell them to keep their legs crossed if they want to keep the population down or use some birth control. We know what causes pregnancy it is not a mystery

[fredsue]

Originally Posted by Lou Stefanic

The real problem is that people are living longer thanks to advances in health and medicine. It's all of these unproductive old people that are a drain on our system. With the vast overpopulation, do we really want to make health care that much more available?

There comes a point where we really need to clear out the old growth for the new growth. By age 60, you're almost certainly using more than you produce. I'm in favor of clearing them all out, unless of course, they can make a successful run to Sanctuary.

years ago I would have been saying 60 in a joke as well but now....lets go closer to 80....

[mn3]

"Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a single sperm gets wasted,
God gets quite irate."

The Catholic Song -
Monty Python's, The Meaning of Life

[DTH]

Congrats to Mr. Bing. Good choice for Detroit.

Bing wins Detroit mayoral race | detnews.com | The Detroit News

Bing wins Detroit mayoral race

Leonard N. Fleming, Darren A. Nichols and Jim Lynch / The Detroit News

Detroit -- Unofficial vote tallies show businessman Dave Bing defeating Mayor Kenneth Cockrel Jr., with the majority of precincts reporting.

More than 99 percent of the city's precincts are in and Bing holds a four-point lead over Cockrel, while voters appear ready to overwhelmingly approve Proposal C to create a commission to rework the city charter.

At Bing's Fort-Shelby Hotel headquarters, supporters are preparing for a victory speech scheduled for 11 p.m.

Tim Kiska, who is analyzing poll returns for The Detroit News, called the race for Bing at 9:50 p.m., saying Bing has a 3,700-vote lead among the approximately 60,000 absentee ballots. At 10:20 p.m., the Associated Press called the race for Bing as well.

"We're energized by the levels of so many people and volunteers to get the vote out for Dave Bing and to get out his message," said Cliff Russell, a Bing Spokesman. "We believe that Detroiters are speaking loud and clear of this change."

Just before 10 p.m., several people still had hope for a Cockrel win.

U.S. Rep. John Conyers, sans his controversial wife Monica who is City Council president, said he initially predicted a big Cockrel victory but that isn't going to come to pass.

But he vowed, "The mayor will win. That's how I feel, which was exactly the way I felt 24 hours ago."

"I predicted it would be a big win," he said. "Today, that hasn't come out of my mouth. I think it's going to be close."

Darchelle Strickland Love, the mayor's chief of staff, said she hopes Cockrel is victorious because the city needs his leadership.

"A certain body of work has already begun and we really do need to continue it," she said. "Any disruption at this point will not be catastrophic for this city but it will be a setback. It's like the momentum is there."

Some of Bing's supporters were already looking ahead Tuesday night.

"This is but the second quarter. There are two more quarters to go," said the Rev. Wendell Anthony, at the Bing reception. "We won the first quarter. It is yet to be determined about tonight, but we're moving in the right direction. We have a lot of challenges. It's going to take all of us to bring this city together."

Cockrel is keeping with tradition as well, planning a victory party at El Kiosko banquet hall in Southwest Detroit. Earlier in the day, he stumped for votes at the Poletown plant.

The party for Cockrel was rocking with loud music and a festive atmosphere with two large TV screens. The DJ was one of the police officers who guard City Council members and there were dancers with pom pons and fishnet stockings.

Many of the mayor's top officials milled about the El Kiosko banquet hall in southwest Detroit awaiting numbers on absentee ballots and word on when Cockrel would arrive.

The Rev. Oscar King, the mayor's pastor and head of Northwest Unity Baptist Church, said he was "not particularly dismayed" by the early returns.

King recalled how for the early returns for President Obama last fall prompted a lot of "long faces for the first hour" until the world realized he had won.

"I predict that whoever wins this race, it is going to be by one or two percent," King said. "I'm not sure it has to do with the credibility of either candidate."

Bing was at the hotel about 7 p.m., as workers set up chairs and balloons waited to descend. He said he didn't plan on monitoring the numbers.

"I'll have somebody else watch the results, quite frankly," Bing said. "There's not a lot at this point that I can do to change it at all. I'll get some feedback and get ready for the final run."

Bing celebrated at the hotel on Feb. 24, when he and Cockrel advanced to today's general election to complete the term of Kwame Kilpatrick that ends Dec. 31.

Bing said he has seen momentum shift toward his candidacy. "I think people are starting to feel that they want change and that change is necessary," he said.

One of those was T. Barker, 61, who voted for Bing just before the polls closed in Rosedale Park because "it's just kind of breaking clean from the past administrations."

"I know Cockrel is trying to separate himself from past administrations but he voted for a lot of the stuff that Kwame pushed," he said. "And if it was tainted, he's a part of it."

Bing and Cockrel are fighting to serve the remainder of Kilpatrick's term. The city charter mandates a special election to fill the position.

Before the start of the day, elections officials had predicted about 15 percent, but no more than 20 percent. In contrast, slightly more than 13 percent of voters went to the polls to choose the successor to Councilwoman Brenda Scott after she died.

Cockrel, who had been City Council president, became mayor under city charter rules when Kilpatrick resigned and went to jail because of the text-message scandal. Bing, a former Detroit Piston and owner of an automotive supply company, is making his first run for elected office.

No matter who wins, another mayoral primary will be held in August and a general election in November to decide who will serve in that post for the four-year term that starts in 2010.

[Orwellian O.]

The truth of the matter is.....Detroit needs Kwame back.....though I always support business people who get involved in politics....

I think Detroit's biggest problems are its high taxes and its unwillingness (or inability) to expand its borders into the suburbs like most normal big cities.

[bozo the clown]

Dave Bing is the new mayor. He has defeated Cockrel.

[Orwellian O.]

I think the picture below best represents how liberals peddle government programs to the people.....

[Jangul]

Any funny icons depicting how the conservatives peddled government programs like the war in Iraq, no bid contracts, and warrantless wiretapping?

[Dave Bing]

It's not torture if they don't live to complain...

[your name here]

Yay for big government!!!!

[Dave Bing]

I would say "yay for medium sized government."

[your name here]

Not by the time this administration is done... United States of America... The new France... France 2.0... Welcome to the European nation!!

[Dave Bing]

Have you ever been to France? It's not so bad.

[hack]

Well, it's bad, but not because of the welfare state. Anyways, right on topic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/ma...er=rss&emc=rss. A very thoughtful take by an American living in Amsterdam on the benefits and drawbacks of each model.

[Dave Bing]

You don't like France, Hack? Why?

[hack]

France is the world's richest and most expensive developing country.

[hack]

I mean, if I wanted to live in a nice place where the plumbing doesn't work, I can at least not overpay.

Less flippantly, I think France shares some remarkable parallels with Greece, Turkey, Thailand and perhaps other countries in which the economy would be dead without tourism and the past has created an inflated sense of the national identity and global presence. Pride comes from the past, and while there's plenty of good reason for that past-based pride to exist, in particular for the French, this prevents these countries from actually accomplishing anything today. The Thais keep waiting for the royal family to fix stuff that isn't going to be fixed. Turks think they can shout and wave their swords and the EU will roll over like the Balkans did back in the day. The French economy is sclerotic because they won't borrow concepts from Anglosaxons, and you can't have a political discussion with a Frenchman without feeling like you're talking to a freshman just freshly walled off from reality by naive ideological rigidity. They've embedded the same attitude in La Francophonie, which is a big reason why West Africa is so messed, and in particular why capital markets there are so useless.

In each case, speaking to any of these people in their native language gives them far too much of an ego boost than is healthy. Too much pride, not enough ability to learn from others.

[Fool]

Why can't you "equate a fetus with a living baby" in this matter? That seems to beg the same question as ... fredsue or Bill I believe ... did earlier. You are declaring the conclusion of the discussion with your first premise, which you don't entirely support.

What is the difference in our obligations to "living fetuses" in the womb as opposed to "living babies" in the womb? When is person-hood bestowed?

My ex-wife and I had a miscarriage. It was terrible for her but not really so for me. It was really early on and I hadn't developed any real feelings over the pregnancy yet. And we already had my daughter. I know this though, as soon as we found out my wife was pregnant, both times, we started changing our lives as though we had obligations to the "living fetus". Diets changed, activities changed, economic expenditures changed. We didn't wait for the 12th week like it was some magic doorway the "living fetus" had to cross through.

[Dave Bing]

Good article on the Dutch. I liked the last paragraph (below). We will disagree on the French. There is a lot of innovation there. While there is something of a condescention tied to culture, there is also a respect for the arts, creativity and intellectual freedom. It is a country that has a viable fascist and a viable communist party. You get the full spectrum. The French economy is as sclerotic as the British or German. Do they all fail for the same reason in your eyes?

Geert Mak, the Dutch author, insisted that happiness is tied directly to the social system. We were sitting at his favorite cafe, a hangout of Dutch journalists since the end of World War II, and the genial, old-wood setting of the place, as well as its location, around the corner from the Dam and the center of the city’s history, added a bit of luster to his words and reminded me, for the thousandth time, why I’m still here, despite the downside. “One problem with the American system,” he said, “is that if you lose your job and are without an income, that’s not just bad for you but for the economy. Our system has more security. And I think it makes our quality of life better. My American friends say they live in the best country in the world, and in a lot of ways they are right. But they always have to worry: ‘What happens to my family if I have a heart attack? What happens when I turn 65 or 70?’ America is the land of the free. But I think we are freer.”

[hack]

There is innovation in France. Here's an example: 40 m2 pour 4 et un chien. But the childish insistence on not borrowing outside ideas means innovation isn't a large-scale, economy-enhancing phenomenon. It wouldn't be hard to figure out how to mobilize that talent, but nobody's interested in what other countries have accomplished -- to their own detriment. The language issue is really telling -- West Africa is the only place I've been to where tourist infrastructure is unilingual. That's idiotic, especially when you do the math and see what even a tiny bump in tourist arrivals would do for the tiny GDPs of those francophone countries. It's a huge jobs creator, but the notion of having to host non-French speakers? -- sacrebleu!!! This is France's legacy. It's the kind of nationalist bullshit you expect from a Asian strongman, not a G-7 country.

I do appreciate the French for what they offer, and you forgot to mention food (tho soft cheeses are overrated. At 60% fat content, they damn well better taste good!). But, just for the sake of argument, what is the value of having viable fascist and communist parties? On the surface, sure -- it's a plurality of opinions and outlooks. In reality, it translates into a country of people pitting one utopia against another in endless and useless discussions in which nobody changes their minds, and with little of the debate actually contributing to the public discourse that shapes the country's future. Maybe they should talk about something other than political theories long discredited.

[Dave Bing]

I was just countering your point that somehow they are monolithic slaves worshipping the fifth republic. But you don't think that they have been innovators in energy, ecology, agriculture, even weapons development? And they cooperate well with the EU.

[hack]

Is ``cooperate well'' a euphemism for ``continually throwing tantrums until they get their way''? The common-ag policy is the classic example. Anyways, I'm not saying France is a total fuck-up, and you're right -- lotsa talented people there doing interesting things. But I am noting that the pride-over-progress mentality, which is to be disdained, is more common to the developing world and not to the developed. Why is it like this?

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by Medz

I actually don't disagree with that entirely . Somewhere between the 12th and 20th weeks, I begin to change my opinion on the issue, in which case abortion should probably only be an option to protect the life of the mother, or some extenuating circumstance arises. Making it illegal across the board, however, is not the best solution.

So decide. Most people who are opposed to abortion have decided, and you ridicule them for it. But here you are on the brink of a revelation that you too think, at some point, the fetus is a viable human being.

[bozo the clown]

Yeah, he's on the brink of a real revelation from the Lord by deciding there should be a cut-off point for abortions.

I've decided. It's the 18.445 week. There, done.