[Money23]

Knight made good decisions in that game, despite the lack of assist totals. That's really the most important thing.

[Money23]

Great point, diecast.

[Billl]

Frank ran this basic offense in NJ and Jason Kidd had absolutely no problem racking up assists.

Knight isn't a pure pg and he is never going to be. He's got decent vision and is a willing passer. If he learns to minimize his turnovers and manage the game better, he's got enough other positives to be a very effective pg. His defense is top notch for a rookie. He rebounds well for his position. He can get into the paint with quickness. He can knock down shots with the best of them. Most importantly, you can see him improving as the season goes along.

[Kstat]

Originally Posted by Billl

Frank ran this basic offense in NJ and Jason Kidd had absolutely no problem racking up assists.

...because he wasn't sharing the ball with Kerry Kittles and Kenyon Martin.

This is not the same structure he ran in NJ.

[Billl]

"This is not the same structure he ran in NJ."

Uh, yes it is. They ran most of the same sets, screens, backcuts etc. Kidd is just WAY, WAY better at getting people the ball in scoring position. Not being as good as one of the greatest passers ever is not a slam on knight.

[mn3]

Kidd was the sole ball handler and distributor on the NJ Frank teams. Knight shares that with Stuckey and Prince, and even with Bynum. Knight shares that with Monroe, who we run the offense through a lot. There's no question that he's playing in a totally different offense in that many players share the playmaking duties on this team.

That said, Kidd is one of the rare true point guards the game has seen in the past decade or so. Not many other PG's dribble until they make the pass immediately leading to a shot. CP3, Rubio, Rondo, Nash - there just aren't many guys who play with the ball in their hands the entire time and who pass with the skill that Bob Cousy had. Knight isn't in that league as a great passer. But neither is Irving, or Rose, Parker, D-Will or Westbrook. Those guys can all pass, but they aren't in Kidd's class in that area, but each are elite PGs.

[hack]

I think the talk of running the offense through Monroe is more an idea at this point than a reality. When Monroe gets the ball, he's looking to score. When he passes, it's because he sees a better scoring opportunity elsewhere. That's not running the offense through him. It's just good team basketball.

I think it will very likely become more of a reality in the coming years however.

[Billl]

On the NJ team, 4 of the 5 starters averaged over 2 assists. On our team, 4 of the 5 starters average more than 2 assists. Kidd did not dribble, dribble, dribble on that NJ team. They ran the same princeton offense that we do. He racked up assists in transition and he made plays in the halfcourt. He made decent role players look like all-stars.

[mn3]

Originally Posted by Billl

On the NJ team, 4 of the 5 starters averaged over 2 assists. On our team, 4 of the 5 starters average more than 2 assists. Kidd did not dribble, dribble, dribble on that NJ team. They ran the same princeton offense that we do. He racked up assists in transition and he made plays in the halfcourt. He made decent role players look like all-stars.

Good points. It's a bit rude of you, however, to bring facts into this discussion.

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by hack

I think the talk of running the offense through Monroe is more an idea at this point than a reality. When Monroe gets the ball, he's looking to score. When he passes, it's because he sees a better scoring opportunity elsewhere. That's not running the offense through him. It's just good team basketball.

I think it will very likely become more of a reality in the coming years however.

Good post, No team really "runs" their offense through the post. Even guys like Webber did more of what you describe than actually running an offense.

[DYNOMITE]

Just to point out.....Irving averages 4.9 assists a game. 28 guys in the league average more. He is more Evans than Nash at this point.

[papalawrence]

Originally Posted by DYNOMITE

Just to point out.....Irving averages 4.9 assists a game. 28 guys in the league average more. He is more Evans than Nash at this point.

Yeah, but Knight is 20, and a rookie. And as Bill posted, showing nice improvement.

Nash did not avg even 7 assists a game until his minutes were in the mid 30's -- and he was 26. His first few seasons were 4-5 asst/gm. His stats:

Steve Nash NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

I'm not saying Knight is going to be Nash. Not at all. What I am saying is why not be happy for what he has shown to date? Bill stated it well. I'm very excited that both he and Monroe are in the mix for the Pistons core going forward -- and am growing more excited at the prospect of Stuckey being in that mix as well.

[mn3]

I'm very impressed by Irving. He has a little Chris Paul in him, but I don't think he'll be quite as good - and definitely doesn't have the same pure PG skills Paul brings.

I see him more in the Derrick Rose mold, but without the supreme athleticism.

What he does seem to have is the "it" factor. I hope to be able to say the same about Knight in the next year or two - I continue to see signs of that being something we can legitimately foresee.. Irving is ahead of Knight in terms of being countonable and dominant in the close games.

[hack]

I see Irving more in the Dennis Scott mold but without the shot. Or in the Shaq mold but without the physical post presence.

[hack]

I think what would be nice for Knight is to develop some of those game manager skills. At one point when things were collapsing last night and the game was devolving into a playground track meet, Knight pushed in for a very sloppy and contested layup attempt. Those are times when you need a PG to recognize, slow up, and orchestrate a methodical possession where if you don't score at least you disrupt the flow in hopes of ending the other team's run. He's a rookie -- it'll come. I'm just pointing it out as a reasonable expectation.

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by papalawrence

Yeah, but Knight is 20, and a rookie. And as Bill posted, showing nice improvement.

Nash did not avg even 7 assists a game until his minutes were in the mid 30's -- and he was 26. His first few seasons were 4-5 asst/gm. His stats:

Steve Nash NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

I'm not saying Knight is going to be Nash. Not at all. What I am saying is why not be happy for what he has shown to date? Bill stated it well. I'm very excited that both he and Monroe are in the mix for the Pistons core going forward -- and am growing more excited at the prospect of Stuckey being in that mix as well.

I am making no prediction as to where he ends up. I am just pointing out that he is a scoring point guard right now.

[Stefan S]

Surely, not a natural PG a la Kidd or CP or Nash.

But i am happy with what we have so far (not ideal, but huge progress).

[DYNOMITE]

I was talking about Irving. But I am happy also.

[papalawrence]

Knight is probably more in the Billups model of pg, imho. Not as big and strong - but does have more quickness. He is also a gym rat. I think his playmaking skills will improve. Imho he can be the pg on a contender, and that's the thing you look for, so long as the complimentary pieces are there.

[hack]

Sure. Not the complete package, but definitely a guy you can win with. I think he can learn to be a good decision maker. I wonder if he has it in him to be a fourth-quarter scorer. He can create for himself, he's got an array of shots, and he's got the mentality. If he can provide clutch scoring, that would really be something.

[mn3]

Originally Posted by papalawrence

Knight is probably more in the Billups model of pg, imho. Not as big and strong - but does have more quickness. He is also a gym rat. I think his playmaking skills will improve. Imho he can be the pg on a contender, and that's the thing you look for, so long as the complimentary pieces are there.

One great sign from Knight is how unafraid he seems to take key shots down the stretch - and how many of them he makes.

[mn3]

David (Chicago)




I watched Irving v. Knight last night. Just wow. Any reason why these two won't be one of the league's better rivalries in a couple of seasons? Hellofan influx of great young PG's when you add Rubio and Lin, eh?
Chad Ford(1:44 PM)





We are in the golden era of point guards right now. Deepest position of any in the league. Paul, Rose, Westbrook, Williams, Parker, Nash, Lowry, Rondo, Irving, Rubio, Curry, Wall as potentially Holiday, Jennings, Knight, Walker ... Lin. It's amazing. Good thing too because this year's draft doesn't have much in the way of PG prospects.

[B.I.G.]

Knight with 2 assist so far. Calderon 13 assist. Good job Brandon

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by B.I.G.

Knight with 2 assist so far. Calderon 13 assist. Good job Brandon

what a wonderful up-beat optimistic comment.

[Kstat]

It's great to know you can accurately gauge the value of a pg by looking at the assist total in a box score...

[hack]

Everyone here was thinking that. You're the only one that stepped up to the tee. Show a little restraint like the rest of us grown-ups, ok?

[papalawrence]

I was actually thinking about Salma Hayek.

[hack]

She was probably thinking about me.

[Stefan S]

"Who's hot: Brandon Knight has had seven-plus assists for three consecutive games. Until then, he never even had two such games consecutively. The rookie point guard also kept his scoring up in those games, with an average of 19.7 points, and 6-of-9 overall shooting on 3-pointers. The seven turnovers against the Bulls were Knight's most in a game. But of all the responses after Frank called out the Pistons since the Orlando loss, Knight's was the most pronounced."

... etc etc: http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.s..._final_si.html

[mn3]

One other thought on this thread.

Knight stayed healthy all season. Irving, for the second straight year had injuries that cost him a lot of games played.

[hack]

My thought on this thread is that the most telling part of it is how inactive it has been since the early-season euphoria wore off. We went from ``Irving's a scorer and not a real PG like Knight is'' to crickets. End of story.

[tin mad dog]

Of course this isn't a 1 year debate. Irving's ahead now but his play didn't exactly equate to wins.

[Hobbs]

Cleveland was pretty good until they decided to not be. I think the injury thing is a legit criticism of Irving until he proves otherwise though.

[El Axe]

Grantland writer Priutti weighs in on the top 10 rookies for the season: Ricky Rubio, Kyrie Irving, and the final NBA Rookie Rankings of the 2012 season - Grantland.

Knight didn't make the cut. Irving was #1, Rubio #2 & Isaiah Thomas, pg for Kings, was rated #3. Isaiah was something like pick #60. He looks good in the highlights. Complete game for a pg.

[Kstat]

It should be noted that knight has shredded Isaiah twice this season...

[El Axe]

Originally Posted by Kstat

It should be noted that knight has shredded Isaiah twice this season...

I didn't see those games. It's good to know. While it's obvious that Priutti knows basketball, it's easy to question his ranking of Knight. Knight was in the top 10 the first half of the season as the Pistons went 4-20. Once he started playing better and the team started winning, he was dropped from the list.

Anyway, most pgs usually take 2-3 years before we can really know how good they'll be.

[hack]

It echoes how people thought about him here too. That first bit of the year was when the exaggeration in this thread was at its worst and also when Pruitti was ranking Knight highly too. But so were a lot of rookies, like Norris Cole, in those early days with a very small game sample. Perhaps it became clear how limited Knight's role in the offense was going to be, but I agree that people stopped talking about Knight right around the time that he started doing better than 1:1 A:TO.

[Billl]

Knight A/To by month

1.07, 1.10, 2.18, 1.59, 1.46

About 2.5 puts you in "starting nba pg" range. Knight is currently at #66 ie way outside of any reasonable pg performance. He's certainly shown promise as a scorer and defender, but his pg skills are way below average right now. He's obviously still really young, but he's got a lot of work to do.

[mn3]

He's 20 years old, and playing on a bad team - one whose "go to" scorers didn't get the job done - one whose supposedly great outside shooters (Gordon, Daye, CV) stunk to high heaven.

David Thorpe just said this week on his ESPN chat that it isn't true at all that guys who don't come into the league with pure point guard skills won't develop them.

I think Knight's obviously big-time talented. But yeah, it'll take a few seasons for us to know how good or great he's going to be. He's got a reputation as a super hard worker, a brilliant kid, and a good guy - so I feel really good about his chances to maximize his potential. If and when he does, I think we'll have an elite PG. Hopefully, by then, the talent on the roster will be greatly improved and will fit around him and Monroe.

In the meantime, I sure hope this team gives me a lot more reason to hope.

[hack]

Thanks Billl, those were telling. I didn't realize the dropoff was so severe. That said, he's not really being asked to create much, so there is a small amount of context through which those numbers should be considered.

When Thorpe says ``it isn't true at all that guys who don't come into the league with pure point guard skills won't develop them'', what he really means is that Knight is 100% certain to develop them.

[Stefan S]

He needs lots of work, no doubt.
But also, I like many flashes and the potential.

we know he is a gym rat and we know he will have more time during the summer and before the next season. I do not know we are set at a PG. But, in my humble o, there are good chances he may develop in a more than adequate PG.

[Billl]

Well, in terms of Knight getting pg duties, that is a bit of a chicken and the egg situation. Does he not get the ball more because he turns it over too much?

Also, Stuckey went on his tear in Feb and early march - the same time that knight's TO's dropped. When stuckey went out in mid-March, Knights turnover problems returned and he's be at 1.31 A/TO since then.

[tin mad dog]

He almost has it at 1.5:1 now. Not the 2:1 you at least want to see but improved for sure. Irving is at 1.7:1.

Since Billups' name was mentioned earlier, let's note that CB didn't better a 2:1 A:TO ratio until his 4th year in the league.

[mn3]

Thorpe, specifically re: Knight, said that he played 300 more minutes this season than any other rookie, and that would make a big difference for him next season. Thorpe expects Knight will develop into a very efficient scorer over the next few seasons. I think his comments about PG play were made in general - not specifically about Knight.

[Billl]

I don't think anyone questions whether knight can score. He's already #11 for pgs even in our glacially paced offense.

[tin mad dog]

I hope he does get some work in in the summer league, along with our draft pick and Singler.

Summer League and Training Camp were two big things missing for Knight this year. He's pretty much had to wing it on the fly and has done pretty well.

[Hubie]

Well, and that brings up a good point, mad dog. He didn't have the training camp and then also what you would think of as the warm-up games before the season against NBA competition. What we're talking about is a point guard learning to play NBA ball on the fly, ok. If you're Knight, you're also thinking in terms of improving in different ways as the season goes on, so that at the end of the season you're playing at a much higher level than when you came in. He did that. So what you'd like the young man to do, if you're Joe D., is to show the same level of improvement that a Greg Monroe has shown for Detroit, because Greg grew at a nice pace this season into one of our league's most improved players. His level of play elevated greatly since his rookie year. With Brandon, the tools are there, ok. We know that. He's shown all those things that you'd like from a solid point guard at different times. So we look for him to show a similar improvement with his overall game.

[Hobbs]

He has to become much, much, much more efficient and he has to create more for others. His defense was decent enough for a rookie, but the only thing he did well with any consistency is hit the 3 pointer.

[hack]

I don't think he was asked to do much creating for others, and that's fine. Let him figure out how to get his own and how to defend and whatnot first, as we have Stuckey to do a little bit of distribution and tossing it in to Monroe is going to pay off more and more. I don't think Knight's really capable yet of creating for others, but it's hard to criticize him for it given that he wasn't given the chance to do it.

In short, I am not disagreeing with you at all but hoping to add the point that, I guess, we'll see when we get there.

[Hobbs]

I definitely think he has potential, but I'm at best 50/50 on if he gets there.