[hack]

Money always used to say we'd have to wait until Flip's HC career is over to make a fair comparison with LB. I figure we're a year or two away maximum...

[Jeff Hause]

So we have to stare at this empty discussion for months and months until they play again? Try to sleep, already...

Think of something slow and monotonous, like sheep jumping a fence... or Larry Brown's offense...

[Stefan S]

I think it's bst to quantify this sort of debate. So, here is the first stab at it:

Level 10 coaches: Phil Jackson, Chuck, Riley, Pop, Red

The Back Stabber at his best: 8.5-9 (he whines too much)
The Back Stabber at his worst: 0.5-1.0 (simply destroy a team from within)

Flip at his best: 8 (does not motivate and instill enough confidence)
Flip at his worst: 5

Q, Curry, and so on: consistent 1.5-3.5

[Stefan S]

Average for the Back Stabber: 4.5-5
Average for Flip: 6.5

advantage Flip.

[papalawrence]

At one point Brown's positives outweighed his negatives and he was a viable coach who could mold and lead a team to elite status........but at some point, perhaps during his final year with the Pistons, his ego just got too big and the negatives took the lead. That said, I do not think Flip will ever be able to lead a team to a championship.

[hack]

He got crazy and is no longer viable, for sure. If we weren't gonna go after Nate MacMillan I still would have rather had him, with all that baggage, for another year maybe.

That said, maybe no need for a thread after all. LB was inducted into the HOF at age 61. Jeff, shall we bet on whether Flip makes it at age 61?

[Jeff Hause]

By the way, FOR THE 10,000,000th TIME, nobody said Flip was a Hall of Fame coach. YOU said "nobody is worse than Flip." Then (obviously), you realized after a couple hours that it was a stupid position to take after after what this team has been through in the last couple of years, and you had to revert to this argument.

PS: Last year, Brown was the worst coach in the league, by far.

[Stefan S]

What Jeff said in the last post.

Mr. Hack,
for one time, quantify and admit
you were just plain wrong.

Flip is a good coach in the range of 8
if you wanna be harsh, make it 7-7.5, or 6
(though, 5 ECF in a row with a team on a decline is an achievement).
Obviously not a HofF coach, Mc. Millan might have been better. OK.

The worse ever is like 1.5-3 range
that's the range for Curry and Q.

[whoDean]

It is obvious Hack's post re: no one being worse than Saunders was Flippant, but Brown's career (despite recent events) far eclipses his.

[Stefan S]

No argument there, whoDean.

Brown is already H of F
and always has had a potential to be one of the greatest ever.

Flip, well, just a solid journeyman.
Nothing extraordinary, nothing too bad.

A great motivator leader a la, ay, Doc Rivers
so, the team will rally behind you. Neah!
Not even close.

When he took over, I thought it was the right decision.
Once we lost Ben, it was pretty much over.
Jeff has always been right about this point.

Now, Brown pretty much lost the entire team.
Flip lost Ben (so, it was over).

Lots of other coaches would do much worse.
Few would do better (and most were not available).

[Orwellian O.]

Curry is a good coach....(and no, its not just the cheapish Serbian vodka I'm drinking at the moment).

People underestimate how much of a cancer Hamilton and Iverson where. It totally sunk the team...

[Stefan S]

that possibly Curry > Q, does not mean Curry was good.

But, yeah, it was unfair to him he was dealt such a hand
and in the midst of the season, too.
I agree, he had 2 cancers on his team.

[Jeff Hause]

Three, counting him...

[papalawrence]

It sure looked like Curry was in way over his head. Even had there been no cancers on the team I'm not sure he could manage them.

[Hobbs]

Charley "The Curmudgeon" Rosen rates the current NBA head coaches (including Flip and Frank).

HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Charley Rosen Grading the coaches

[Stefan S]

Nice, speaking about Pistons connections:

Frank gets some love:

Lawrence Frank (Detroit): Nobody works harder or is better prepared. Despite his mild exterior, can be a martinet behind closed doors. Grade: B.

...which is more than Collins, who gets B-.

Doug Collins (Philadelphia): Kept his ego and his mouth in check and did a great job with an inferior team. Has widened the scope of his game plan since his days in Detroit and Chicago. Grade: B minus.

Flip gets C-:

Flip Saunders (Washington): His multi-faceted offensive strategies are too complicated for today’s dumbed-down players. Lacks the charisma to be head coach. Would be best utilized as an assistant in charge of Xs. Grade: C minus.

Carlisle, McMillan and Pop get tremendous respect:

Nate McMillan (Portland): Always gets the most out of the least. Grade: A

Rick Carlisle (Dallas): His toughness is contagious, his preparation is immaculate and he’s not afraid to take chances. Grade: A.

Gregg Popovich (San Antonio): With Phil Jackson out of the picture, Pop is the best in the business. Demands discipline, hustle, and unselfishness, and always speaks his mind. Grade: A plus.

Read more: HoopsHype.com NBA Blogs - Charley Rosen Grading the coaches

[Jeff Hause]

Erik Spoelstra gets a D+. He has been a head coach for 3 years and been in 33 playing games, winning 18 of them.

Nate McMillen has been a head coach for 11 years and has been in a grand total of in 34 playoff games, winning 14 of them.

Good job, Charley...

[Lou Stefanic]

That's a pretty awful list. How does Ty Corbin merit a grade but Vogel gets an "incomplete?"

[Jeff Hause]

And Flip, Stan Van Gundy, Scott Brooks, Kevin McHale (who hasn't coached yet), Mike Brown and Vinny del Negro all get a C-. Something tells me that he didn't do a lot of work on this list...

[Nick]

LB might have been a smarter coach, but that doesn't make you a better coach. Brown's a selfish jerk who was lucky to coach the Pistons to a championship. Too bad we didn't keep Rick.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Stefan S

Nate McMillan (Portland): Always gets the most out of the least. Grade: A

Did I miss something? Portland has talent most teams dream of no?

[Mel Kiper Jr]

Portland is talented...but they always have injuries. Oden and Roy barely played.

Speaking of Popovich...I wonder how the Pistons past season would have turned out if he was our coach? No doubt he is a winner...but it would be interesting to see him coach with an inferior roster and see his results.

[hack]

It's definitely fun to exaggerate, but the drawback indeed is when some people don't get the subtext. That said, Jeff, put your money where your mouth is: are you going to take the bet on Flip making the HOF by age 61 or not?

[Jeff Hause]

LOL - I'd like you to find a post somewhere in the past in which I said Flip was a Hall of Fame coach.

I said he was a good coach. You said nobody was worse, despite being stuck with worse for three years.

And, looking for another argument, you've translated that into "Hall of Fame coach," straw man...

By the way, you think they're making room on Brown's plaque to chronicle the last six years?


"I'd like to thank Isiah and the Knicks for firing me after the worst record in team history. I'd like to thank Michael Jordan for firing me 25 games into the 2011 season. But I couldn't do it alone -- you can't go 111-163 over six years without the help of some truly mediocre assistant coaches -- who Joe Dumars would like to thank for crippling the Pistons franchise for the last couple of years..."

[hack]

You said he was better than Brown. So surely you must be expecting him to hit the hall?

[Jeff Hause]

EVERYBODY was better than Brown last year. EVERYBODY was better than Brown in New York.

Brown has been the worst coach in the league for the majority of the last six years.

[Stefan S]

I'm sure Jeff will answer your point. (edit: 'has already answered your point)

But, since I too said he was better, let me explain.
Flip was better for our team at that particular time in his an our history. Of course, it does not mean Flip is over all (over a span of his career) a better coach than LB.

[Mel Kiper Jr]

Remember how Larry Brown was essentially rumored to coach the Cavs during his 2nd season here...that was an Iverson-esque distraction especially during the playoffs...

http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=12111

(That link is gold...when you read it you will see why.)

[Dave Bing]

I think there will be a heavy "win this for coach brown" theme in the locker room.

.......

[Mel Kiper Jr]

Originally Posted by Dave Bing

.......

Let's win one for our leader who is entertaining coaching offers with other teams during our playoff run!

[hack]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hause

EVERYBODY was better than Brown last year. EVERYBODY was better than Brown in New York.

Brown has been the worst coach in the league for the majority of the last six years.

Well in 2009-2010 he took the Bobcats to the playoffs for the first time in franchise history. That's pretty good. By definition, can't be the worst. Flip, on the other hand, oversaw a team of gun-pulling lottery dwellers. And then when the team traded away its gunslinger in chief and added John Wall, they lost even more the next season.

I used to think that Flip was just the wrong guy at the wrong time in Detroit. Now however the evidence suggests that he's just the wrong guy, period.

[Jeff Hause]

"One year was mediocre before he sucked again and got fired 25 games into the season! Hall of Fame! Hall of Fame, damn it!!!"

[Mel Kiper Jr]

Wrong place wrong time in Detroit? He won 64, 53, then 59 games in Detroit during the regular season finishing 1st in the division all 3 years.

[Jeff Hause]

That's what makes this so entertaining.

[whoDean]

Nothing makes this argument entertaining after 5 years of it.

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by Dave Bing

(quoting KStat) "I think there will be a heavy "win this for coach brown" theme in the locker room." .......

It was more like let's win one to prove this freakin' back stubbing ego-maniac that the world does not revolver around him.

Oh well...

[hack]

"One year was mediocre before he sucked again and got fired 25 games into the season! Hall of Fame! Hall of Fame, damn it!!!"


Well actually he's been in the Hall of Fame for a decade already. What's sad about Flip is that he was a worse choice than sticking with the half-out-the-door LB for another season. The bar was pretty low for Flip -- let championship-calibre players do their thing. He failed.

[Jeff Hause]

Originally Posted by hack

Well actually he's been in the Hall of Fame for a decade already.

Yeah, he's lucky they can't take it back.

He's in for college, anyway. He hasn't done much to distinguish himself as a Hall of Famer in the NBA. At least compared to Jackson, Riley, Pop, etc., who had their greatest success at the pro level...

PS: Pure comedy gold... Except to WhoDean...

[hack]

He hasn't done much to distinguish himself as a Hall of Famer in the NBA. At least compared to Jackson, Riley, Pop, etc.


LB has more regular-season wins than Popovich.

[Jeff Hause]

And 500 more losses!

Brown: 1098 wins, 904 losses, .548

Popovich: 797 wins, 383 losses, .675

[hack]

Got me on that one -- Brown has taken on some crappy teams, unlike Pops who waited to fired Bob Hill until the point at which both Elliot and Robinson were available.

I agree that LB was a great college coach -- 3 Final Fours and 1 title in 7 years. Averaged 25 wins a year. Then again, for three of the league's worst franchises some of their only good years came under Brown -- the Nets, Clips and Bobs. He's got a title and took 2 different teams to the finals. He's the only coach who was a champion on both levels.

[Jeff Hause]

Dude, got you on every one. Regular season, playoffs, championships, head to head... I'd quit comparing Brown and Pop.

[hack]

Nope. LB's taken more teams. He's done it without stars. He's done it in college. Pop has rings and a percentage, and any smart debate takes into account that LB's done it without Duncan.

But in reality we're both here to compare LB and Flip. I can see why you're trying not to. Since everyone wants us to stop, and I am sensitive to that, I propose we just bet on when Flip will make it to the HOF. If you think Flip's a better coach surely you must expect him to get there.

[Jeff Hause]

See post, above. Quit being a dumbass.

[Stefan S]

This seems pretty balanced:

Larry Brown’s Inevitable Return From The Dead
Posted by Jovan Buha
Monday, July 25, 2011

Hall of Fame coach Larry Brown has an interest in joining Doc Rivers’ Boston Celtics staff as an assistant coach, assuming Lawrence Frank accepts the Detroit Pistons’ head coaching job, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

Via Yahoo! Sports: Brown wants to join Celtics’ staff

“Extra, extra, read all about it! Larry Brown wants to return to coaching again!”

The following statement may cause some backlash, but I’ll say it anyway: Larry Brown is one of the most overrated coaches in NBA history. Now, before I go any further, let me explain. Whenever someone uses the term ‘overrated’, people tend to jump to conclusions and think that the person (in this case me) is saying that the overrated thing (Brown) sucks. What some people tend to forget is that good things can be overrated too. And yes, Brown is a good, if not great, coach. In fact, he’s probably in the NBA’s top-10 coaches of all-time (somewhere between 8-10). With that said, Brown’s coaching legacy is overvalued by false perceived notions and a boosted reputation.

With 27 years of head coaching experience in the NBA, along with four seasons in the ABA and seven in NCAA basketball, Brown has basically been a head coach for the better part of 40 years. That’s obviously a long time to be entrusted as a head coach (a trust that can easily be lost) and a testament to his success and abilities (which has caused him to develop an amazing reputation). Nevertheless, I have a hard time placing him in the elite, elite pantheon of coaches (feauturing the likes of Phil Jackson, Red Auerbach, Greg Popovich, Pat Riley, Red Holzman, John Kundla and Jerry Sloan, in no particular order).

The biggest difference, in my opinion, between those coaches and Brown is the simple factor of winning (Sloan hasn’t won a title, yes, but his teams have always been very good and consistently contenders). We can all agree, if I’m not mistaken, that the main purpose of basketball is to put the ball through the hoop more than your opponent and win the game. Winning matters. It’s a simple notion that sometimes gets overlooked in this complex sport filled with hundreds of narratives. Unfortunately for him, Brown’s singular title (’04 with Detroit), coupled with a .548 winning percentage (relatively low compared to other greats who are in the .630 range and above) and an inability to sustain a coaching home for more than a few seasons (nine teams in all), has weakened Brown’s case amongst the all-time greats (I’ll also through in the fact that he’s been labeled as high maintenance and burned bridges with a lot of teams; we’ll call this the “Shaq” factor).

Don’t get me wrong. Brown has won an NBA title (and an NCAA title as well, the only coach to do both) and has been to three NBA Finals. In practical terms that’s a very successful career, as only one team is fortunate enough to win a championship each season. At most, there would have been 26 other head coaches who won a championship during Brown’s tenure in the league. But of course we know otherwise, as Brown’s coaching career has seen the likes of Jackson, Riley and Popovich enjoy countless success, each winning multiple titles (and passing him by in the coaching hierarchy).

Undoubtedly a major part of winning a championship has to do with luck (with injuries, players’ egos meshing, etc., all playing a huge role), yet it also has a lot to do with the coach. This is a players’ league, no doubt, but coaches can elevate talented players to the next level (see Lakers, Los Angeles). Brown didn’t have the fortune of having all-time great players (he had David Robinson (kind of), Reggie Miller and Allen Iverson in their primes with weak supporting casts) like Jackson (Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe), Auerbach (Russell, Cousy and Havlicek), Popovich (Robinson, Duncan and Ginobili), Riley (Kareem, Magic, Worthy, Wade and Shaq) and others have had, so there has to be a disclaimer somewhere when his final page is written.

The fact that he has taken eight different teams to the playoffs is incredible, and what’s even more impressive is that he’s helped turn around at least five or six franchises, even if only temporarily. THE PROBLEM IS THAT HE’S COACHED NINE TEAMS! Most elite coaches coach two, maybe three teams tops. Whether it be leaving to coach in college, plain boredom, retirement, or his team firing him, Brown never found a home for more than a few seasons. That has to be a huge asterisk on his legacy. One thing is to not be fortunate enough to win titles or have great players; another is not being able to keep a coaching home (or stay content with it). He has to be penalized for this when comparing him to the Riley’s and Popovich’s of the world. As I previously mentioned, he’s one of the best coaches ever, we just have to nitpick when comparing to the very best.

Unfortunately for Brown, we live in a “what have you done for me lately” society, always looking for the next best thing and constantly forgetting the history of the past. Since 2005, Brown has bounced around to the Knicks (a total disaster) and then the Bobcats (a semi-disaster). He hasn’t been able to relate and get through to his players as he did in years past. This has left a sour taste in the public’s mouth and prevented him from other coaching opportunities. Father Time has a weird way of catching up to people, and it may ring true that he has done so on Brown. There comes a point when the players stop listening to coaches, and Brown has unquestionably had that happen throughout his last few coaching stints.

After being fired by the Bobcats early last season, Brown looked into returning to coach NCAA basketball. He had no such luck (even Isiah Thomas found a coaching job, and he’s a lunatic!). He’s now moved back to wanting to coach in the NBA. Fortunately for him, his name and reputation alone should land him somewhere (possibly as an assistant, though), whether it be in college or in the pros. The question is where? Brown is a particular type of coach. He’s stereotyped as a tough, defensive-minded guy who doesn’t like fast-paced, uptempo teams or playing rookies/young players. So naturally, the Minnesota Timberwolves (who play at the league’s highest pace and feature the youngest roster) are interested. I’m not sold on the fit, obviously, but David Kahn will be David Kahn (although Don Nelson and Rick Adelman may have precedence over Brown in Kahn’s evil genius mind).

At this point in his career, Brown is likely no longer be fit to be a head coach. As an assistant coach with Boston, as reported above, Brown would thrive in the Thibodeau/Frank defensive mastermind role. Brown’s teams have always been good defensively (even great), and he could probably help add new wrinkles to Boston’s almost-perfect defensive system. The Celtics have taken chances on Stephon Marbury, Michael Finley, Rasheed Wallace, Jermaine O’Neal and the Artist Formerly Known as Shaq, so why not on an assistant coach, especially one of Brown’s caliber?

Larry Brown Returning To The Sideline? | Hardwood Paroxysm

By the way, the guy forgot to add Chuck Daly to his list of very best: Chuck Daly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still, one way or another, LB seems to be somewhere towards a bottom of the top 10 coaches of all time.

[hack]

Sloan? Silly. Good piece though apart from the ridic Daly oversight and calling his Bobcats twnure a semi-disaster when he took them to the playoffs. LB should and does get punished for being a wanderer.

[Jeff Hause]

It was an triumphant 9-19 firing.

[papalawrence]

Damn I miss Daly. The world ain't as pretty without him.

[Money23]

I would hire Sloan over LB without even blinking. To ANY team. He took two Utah teams to the Finals, where they gave a helluva fight to one of the greatest teams of all time. Reliability, consistency, blue collar trust...three things LB has never had in the NBA.

[Lou Stefanic]

There are many rumors out there that Flip isn't going to last the week.