Ben Gordon- No more excuses.

tin mad dog · 12-27-2011, 12:18 AM

He should have a great season this year, right?

fredsue · 12-27-2011, 12:23 AM

he is going to get every chance to prove what he can or cannot do

papalawrence · 12-27-2011, 12:40 AM

Imho he is what he is -- a good scorer off of the bench. A role player. Overpaid, but that's not his fault. I think he can get to 16-18 a game, but he will never be an all-star.

Orwellian O. · 12-27-2011, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by papalawrence

Imho he is what he is -- a good scorer off of the bench. A role player. Overpaid, but that's not his fault. I think he can get to 16-18 a game, but he will never be an all-star.

Gotta agree with that.

I believe Joe D was hoping that CV and BG would take their careers to the next level like Ben Wallace and Chauncey did. Instead, their game has regressed a bit.

Billl · 12-27-2011, 08:29 AM

Under very specific circumstances, Gordon could be a near-allstar-level starter. However, we don't have those circumstances right now and Gordon isn't good enough that we should start trying to build a team that fits around him.

EJV · 12-27-2011, 11:07 AM

Billl - Agree that we should not try to build around BG.

Papa and Orwellian are right to have him coming off the bench. If we give Knight 20 minutes a game, Stuckey and Bynum could take care of the rest of the minutes at the point and BG could man the 2.

Orwellian, I think you are spot on with Joe drawing an analogy in his mind between Ben/Chauncey and Charlie V.

I think Joe would have been very happy to have BG play the same role with the Pistions that he did with Chicago. A championship team needs someone like BG who can go unconscious out there with the rock in his hand. Since we are so far away from competing for a championship, however, is BG a luxury we can't afford?

Kstat · 12-27-2011, 01:10 PM

I agree that Gordon is fresh out of excuses.

We ran a TON of his old chicago sets last night. He got a lot of the same looks he got in Chicago.

I'll give him a week to get back into shape, but eventually, he needs to go back to being the ben gordon of old.

ThaMaestro · 12-27-2011, 01:15 PM

Or else!

hack · 12-27-2011, 03:02 PM

Well the good thing is that there is an ``or else'' -- it seems reasonable to assume that the amnesty will be used in the coming offseason, and Gordon controls his own destiny in that sense.

Billl · 12-27-2011, 03:11 PM

I'm looking forward to seeing Gordon log some minutes with Knight. So far, it seems that knight is very solid in terms of passing back to the perimeter off penetration. He hit Daye with several nice passes that way - chest high, right on target, and right in stride. That makes it so much easier to stay in rhythm.

tin mad dog · 12-27-2011, 03:20 PM

Just to clarify, I am not calling Gordon a complete bust as a Piston just yet.

I'm just tired of seeing him get a free pass for not playing well. First it's Kuester's fault, then it's Rip's or Joe's and now, after he's supposedly been freed up, I read that last night was Stuckey's fault.

Billl · 12-27-2011, 03:38 PM

Of course BG doesn't get a pass for his poor play. He's a horribly incomplete player with major flaws in his overall game. He's short, he's a poor defender, he doesn't create for others, and his handle is suspect. He's only going to be "successful" if you don't ask him to do those things and just get him the ball in good scoring positions. When you do that, he's a premier knock down shooter. Unfortunately, we don't currently have the guys to make up for BG's shortcomings - eg a pure pg and some bigs that screen and rebound. Without those, it is going to be really tough for BG to do the one thing he does well.

hack · 12-27-2011, 03:40 PM

You try canning 3s when the pass arrives either at your shins, 2 feet to your left, and so on. I'm not saying he gets a free pass, but the facts are the facts. If you're a bomber you don't want Stuckey as your PG.

Kstat · 12-27-2011, 06:49 PM

At the same time, Gordon doesn't take many shots off the catch. He's an ISO jumpshooter.

hack · 12-27-2011, 07:36 PM

???????

hack · 12-27-2011, 07:38 PM

The difference between him and bench shooters is that he has an off-the-bounce game. The above however, I don't think is accurate.

fredsue · 12-28-2011, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hack

You try canning 3s when the pass arrives either at your shins, 2 feet to your left, and so on. I'm not saying he gets a free pass, but the facts are the facts. If you're a bomber you don't want Stuckey as your PG.

BG still had opportunity in the first game with wide open jumpers that he missed. He did not get all his passes from Stuck...I was thinking that a number came from JJ. Seemed that they would run stuckey to one side then have JJ come to the top of the key who would reverse to BG...BG just was not making his shot...hopefully it is just rust...jus getting tired of excuses for BG like others have mentioned....

hack · 12-28-2011, 09:05 AM

Well there's a difference between ``excuses'' in that context and legitimate reasons that explain his decline here. The former are indeed frustrating whereas the latter are something you can't just wish away.

alias gym rat · 12-28-2011, 01:52 PM

B.G. & C. V. = what. you. see. is. what. you. get.....

hack · 12-28-2011, 07:14 PM

Do you see a playoff assassin in BG or a guy who has played his whole Piston career with two other starting SGs on the roster? I think there's room for both sides in the argument.

Dave Bing · 12-28-2011, 07:18 PM

I'm done making excuses for Chilla but I still believe that BG, used properly, can have a hell of a lot of value. Maybe he doesn't live up to his contract but as a 28 minute third guard scoring 17 against second stringers, he could really help.

I just don't want him checking first team, 6'5" shooting slashers. He costs us a lot of points by being small, slowish and not passionate about defense.

fredsue · 12-28-2011, 07:34 PM

I agree with you Hack and Dave. I still hold hope that Ben can get back to the scorer he was. Not sure he can but he will get his chances this year.

Villa has had numerous chances to prove himself and what he has proven is not good....

Dwight Schrute · 12-28-2011, 07:47 PM

Watch - Ben Gordon is going to go off tonight. And you all will be so confused.

It's too early in the season to draw conclusions. Ben Gordon, when featured, tends to be lights out. Who knows how Frank will use him, however.

Regardless, he's not going to solve our interior defensive problems. This team is top 3 terrible unless they can find a way to start protecting the rim.

fredsue · 12-28-2011, 08:05 PM

I know it is too early but they did try and use him as the focus last game

Billl · 12-28-2011, 10:24 PM

Well, he dropped 25 tonight. He played his game. Shoot. Dribble once and shoot. Pump fake and shoot. He can definitely knock down shots if that is all you ask him to do.

Kstat · 12-28-2011, 10:25 PM

He actually played decent D too. Granted, he never had a tough matchup.

fredsue · 12-28-2011, 10:50 PM

he did play better tonight from what I saw. Would love for him to be the focus of the bench scoring...using JJ's energy with that....

as has been stated numerous times....we are ateam filled with 6th men, energy guys, and players to round out teams....we are missing most of the starters we need to be a good team.

Orwellian O. · 12-28-2011, 10:51 PM

His D was terrible tonight. Though he did put some pressure in the corner of half court in the 4th quarter when the game was already out of hand.

His offensive was good tonight...though, obviously, he is a streaky shooter. He is not a starter. He should be gobbling up minutes as the 6th man wreaking havoc among the second string.

hack · 12-28-2011, 11:24 PM

He works on a team with a good PG and a defensive anchor in the middle. Maybe Knight is that PG. Just find the defensive anchor, and you've schemed around his weaknesses and put him in a position to do what he does.

Orwellian O. · 12-28-2011, 11:26 PM

BG's weakness is that everybody else around him is not awesome and can't pick up his slack...OK...got it!

hack · 12-28-2011, 11:27 PM

That's a very standard Pistons Forum post.

fredsue · 12-28-2011, 11:35 PM

yeah playing next to hinrich and an old Ben Wa was great for him. Or was it PJ brown...

Mel Kiper Jr · 12-29-2011, 12:51 AM

Offense isn't the problem with this team. It's defense. They can't get stops.

We had like 15 rebounds the 1st half and 8 of them were offensive. That's only 7 defensive rebounds...IN A HALF!

Defensive rebounds lead to transition opportunities. Makes lead to the other team being able to set their defense.

tin mad dog · 12-29-2011, 02:03 AM

Nice to see Gordo put up some points but....damn, Cleveland?

Money23 · 12-29-2011, 02:58 AM

Gordon looked pretty good vs. Cavs. Played solid D and found open looks for other guys.

tin mad dog · 12-29-2011, 09:27 AM

Yeah, if he does that against good teams, I'll be pleased.

Money23 · 12-30-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hack

Do you see a playoff assassin in BG or a guy who has played his whole Piston career with two other starting SGs on the roster? I think there's room for both sides in the argument.

Perfectly stated. I mean, we've seen that guy just be an absolute cold blooded shooter in big games against great teams. What's different about his overall situation here so far...?

tin mad dog · 12-30-2011, 05:26 PM

Maybe it's just that we haven't had any big games?

Money23 · 12-31-2011, 02:11 AM

Ha! Could be.

whoDean · 12-31-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tin mad dog

Maybe it's just that we haven't had any big games?

And won't for a few more years, likely.

tin mad dog · 12-31-2011, 02:23 PM

BG didn't come with another big scoring game last night but I like seeing some of the passes he's had.

fredsue · 01-01-2012, 02:22 AM

Ben might be turning the corner....had a good game againstIndy....hada few weak defense trips but that will happen

Kstat · 01-01-2012, 02:42 AM

37 points and 19 assists from our 3 guards...I'm really liking how they are playing together.

FadedMario · 01-01-2012, 06:52 PM

Ben Gordon has been really good so far.

tin mad dog · 01-05-2012, 12:29 PM

I guess for one more night, we can blame Rip for Gordon's struggles.

I keeed. I'm liking what I see out of Gordo this year.

Money23 · 01-05-2012, 09:03 PM

His passing has been the biggest eye-opener so far.

Dave Bing · 01-06-2012, 08:52 AM

I have to say that watching Gordon take that one dribble to the right and fire off that jumper is pretty beautiful.

King Mob · 01-06-2012, 01:41 PM

I've seen him step to the left, step back... you'd think it'd be the most mimicked move since the crossover, if his guy reacts to his drive it gives him enough room to raise up almost every time.

Billl · 01-06-2012, 02:22 PM

That BG stepback is a tough, tough shot to hit consistently though. Most players are much more comfortable getting to step into a shot.

tin mad dog · 01-06-2012, 06:27 PM

I'm thinking of starting a "No more excuses" thread for Daye to see if the same results.

12-27-2011, 12:18 AM	#1
tin mad dog Starter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island City, NY Posts: 9,787 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Ben Gordon- No more excuses. He should have a great season this year, right? __________________ 2011- Oh Bismack, where art thou?

12-27-2011, 03:20 PM	#11
tin mad dog Starter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island City, NY Posts: 9,787 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Just to clarify, I am not calling Gordon a complete bust as a Piston just yet. I'm just tired of seeing him get a free pass for not playing well. First it's Kuester's fault, then it's Rip's or Joe's and now, after he's supposedly been freed up, I read that last night was Stuckey's fault. __________________ 2011- Oh Bismack, where art thou?

12-29-2011, 02:03 AM	#34
tin mad dog Starter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island City, NY Posts: 9,787 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Nice to see Gordo put up some points but....damn, Cleveland? __________________ 2011- Oh Bismack, where art thou?

12-29-2011, 09:27 AM	#36
tin mad dog Starter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island City, NY Posts: 9,787 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Yeah, if he does that against good teams, I'll be pleased. __________________ 2011- Oh Bismack, where art thou?

12-30-2011, 05:26 PM	#38
tin mad dog Starter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island City, NY Posts: 9,787 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Maybe it's just that we haven't had any big games? __________________ 2011- Oh Bismack, where art thou?

12-27-2011, 12:23 AM	#2
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,487 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	he is going to get every chance to prove what he can or cannot do

12-27-2011, 12:40 AM	#3
papalawrence Water Boy Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 859 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Imho he is what he is -- a good scorer off of the bench. A role player. Overpaid, but that's not his fault. I think he can get to 16-18 a game, but he will never be an all-star.

12-27-2011, 08:29 AM	#5
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Under very specific circumstances, Gordon could be a near-allstar-level starter. However, we don't have those circumstances right now and Gordon isn't good enough that we should start trying to build a team that fits around him.

12-27-2011, 11:07 AM	#6
EJV Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 615 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Billl - Agree that we should not try to build around BG. Papa and Orwellian are right to have him coming off the bench. If we give Knight 20 minutes a game, Stuckey and Bynum could take care of the rest of the minutes at the point and BG could man the 2. Orwellian, I think you are spot on with Joe drawing an analogy in his mind between Ben/Chauncey and Charlie V. I think Joe would have been very happy to have BG play the same role with the Pistions that he did with Chicago. A championship team needs someone like BG who can go unconscious out there with the rock in his hand. Since we are so far away from competing for a championship, however, is BG a luxury we can't afford?

12-27-2011, 01:10 PM	#7
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I agree that Gordon is fresh out of excuses. We ran a TON of his old chicago sets last night. He got a lot of the same looks he got in Chicago. I'll give him a week to get back into shape, but eventually, he needs to go back to being the ben gordon of old.

12-27-2011, 01:15 PM	#8
ThaMaestro Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flinttown Representin' Posts: 1,394 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Or else!

12-27-2011, 03:02 PM	#9
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Well the good thing is that there is an ``or else'' -- it seems reasonable to assume that the amnesty will be used in the coming offseason, and Gordon controls his own destiny in that sense.

12-27-2011, 03:11 PM	#10
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I'm looking forward to seeing Gordon log some minutes with Knight. So far, it seems that knight is very solid in terms of passing back to the perimeter off penetration. He hit Daye with several nice passes that way - chest high, right on target, and right in stride. That makes it so much easier to stay in rhythm.

12-27-2011, 03:38 PM	#12
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Of course BG doesn't get a pass for his poor play. He's a horribly incomplete player with major flaws in his overall game. He's short, he's a poor defender, he doesn't create for others, and his handle is suspect. He's only going to be "successful" if you don't ask him to do those things and just get him the ball in good scoring positions. When you do that, he's a premier knock down shooter. Unfortunately, we don't currently have the guys to make up for BG's shortcomings - eg a pure pg and some bigs that screen and rebound. Without those, it is going to be really tough for BG to do the one thing he does well.

12-27-2011, 03:40 PM	#13
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	You try canning 3s when the pass arrives either at your shins, 2 feet to your left, and so on. I'm not saying he gets a free pass, but the facts are the facts. If you're a bomber you don't want Stuckey as your PG.

12-27-2011, 06:49 PM	#14
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	At the same time, Gordon doesn't take many shots off the catch. He's an ISO jumpshooter.

12-27-2011, 07:36 PM	#15
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	???????

12-27-2011, 07:38 PM	#16
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	The difference between him and bench shooters is that he has an off-the-bounce game. The above however, I don't think is accurate.

12-28-2011, 09:05 AM	#18
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Well there's a difference between ``excuses'' in that context and legitimate reasons that explain his decline here. The former are indeed frustrating whereas the latter are something you can't just wish away.

12-28-2011, 01:52 PM	#19
alias gym rat Water Boy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 151 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	B.G. & C. V. = what. you. see. is. what. you. get.....

12-28-2011, 07:14 PM	#20
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Do you see a playoff assassin in BG or a guy who has played his whole Piston career with two other starting SGs on the roster? I think there's room for both sides in the argument.

12-28-2011, 07:18 PM	#21
Dave Bing Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,784 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	I'm done making excuses for Chilla but I still believe that BG, used properly, can have a hell of a lot of value. Maybe he doesn't live up to his contract but as a 28 minute third guard scoring 17 against second stringers, he could really help. I just don't want him checking first team, 6'5" shooting slashers. He costs us a lot of points by being small, slowish and not passionate about defense.

12-28-2011, 07:34 PM	#22
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,487 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I agree with you Hack and Dave. I still hold hope that Ben can get back to the scorer he was. Not sure he can but he will get his chances this year. Villa has had numerous chances to prove himself and what he has proven is not good....

12-28-2011, 07:47 PM	#23
Dwight Schrute Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Milwaukee, Wiscompton Posts: 650 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Watch - Ben Gordon is going to go off tonight. And you all will be so confused. It's too early in the season to draw conclusions. Ben Gordon, when featured, tends to be lights out. Who knows how Frank will use him, however. Regardless, he's not going to solve our interior defensive problems. This team is top 3 terrible unless they can find a way to start protecting the rim.

12-28-2011, 08:05 PM	#24
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,487 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I know it is too early but they did try and use him as the focus last game

12-28-2011, 10:24 PM	#25
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Well, he dropped 25 tonight. He played his game. Shoot. Dribble once and shoot. Pump fake and shoot. He can definitely knock down shots if that is all you ask him to do.

12-28-2011, 10:25 PM	#26
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	He actually played decent D too. Granted, he never had a tough matchup.

12-28-2011, 10:50 PM	#27
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,487 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	he did play better tonight from what I saw. Would love for him to be the focus of the bench scoring...using JJ's energy with that.... as has been stated numerous times....we are ateam filled with 6th men, energy guys, and players to round out teams....we are missing most of the starters we need to be a good team.

12-28-2011, 10:51 PM	#28
Orwellian O. Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,819 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	His D was terrible tonight. Though he did put some pressure in the corner of half court in the 4th quarter when the game was already out of hand. His offensive was good tonight...though, obviously, he is a streaky shooter. He is not a starter. He should be gobbling up minutes as the 6th man wreaking havoc among the second string.

12-28-2011, 11:24 PM	#29
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	He works on a team with a good PG and a defensive anchor in the middle. Maybe Knight is that PG. Just find the defensive anchor, and you've schemed around his weaknesses and put him in a position to do what he does.

12-28-2011, 11:26 PM	#30
Orwellian O. Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,819 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	BG's weakness is that everybody else around him is not awesome and can't pick up his slack...OK...got it!

12-28-2011, 11:27 PM	#31
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	That's a very standard Pistons Forum post.

12-28-2011, 11:35 PM	#32
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,487 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	yeah playing next to hinrich and an old Ben Wa was great for him. Or was it PJ brown...

12-29-2011, 12:51 AM	#33
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Offense isn't the problem with this team. It's defense. They can't get stops. We had like 15 rebounds the 1st half and 8 of them were offensive. That's only 7 defensive rebounds...IN A HALF! Defensive rebounds lead to transition opportunities. Makes lead to the other team being able to set their defense.

12-29-2011, 02:58 AM	#35
Money23 Sixth Man Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: F-f-f-f-Flintown Posts: 3,941 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Gordon looked pretty good vs. Cavs. Played solid D and found open looks for other guys.