Pistons/Pacers New Year's Eve Game Thread - Page 3

Medz · 01-02-2012, 11:36 AM

Moose and Knight are great building blocks for the future. If they both meet their potential, you have a franchise PG and a franchise big man. Not a bad way to start the rebuilding process. We're 3 years away, but at least we finally have some young talent on the team.

fredsue · 01-02-2012, 11:44 AM

I do think the pistons are paying for past years attitude....BUT....if theycontinue to play with effort they will build a fan base again. If JJ continues to play the way he has this season, if moose, Ben G, Knight play the way they have the last few games....the fans will come around. IF u throw in a major trade t perk interest the fans will come take a look....but they do not have the buzz right now that the other teams do....

the Lions...in playoffs for the first time in a while...numerous players talked about on a national level...seem to be building towards alot of good things

The Tigers...players with national interest...playoff run...seem to be building towards alot of good things

The Red Wings...they just keep pluggingalong....they have players talked about nationally...they play as a team...right now they are thought of as an automatic playoff team...and always a threat to go deep deep into playoffs...

Pistons are on the down swing...but maybe thy are starting their up path

GC_STONES · 01-02-2012, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medz

Moose and Knight are great building blocks for the future. If they both meet their potential, you have a franchise PG and a franchise big man. Not a bad way to start the rebuilding process. We're 3 years away, but at least we finally have some young talent on the team.

I don't think we are three years away. Any team can turn it around within 2 years. As you said, we have two cornerstone players in Knight and Monroe. We are increasing our cap flexibility by the season--and we have solid pieces that can be a part of a playoff team or traded (Jerebko, Gordon, Stuckey).

Will we be a contender within 3 years? By all accounts, we should be; but it will take either luck or misfortune for us to not be a playoff team by 2013 and a contender in 2014.

We do need one more high caliber pick on a cheap deal. That's the key with a lot of these teams that turned it around; they had a franchise player signed to a rookie deal for the first few seasons of rebuilding; then acquired a big free agent and shrewdly brought in role players that stepped up their game.

Sadly, I do not think that Knight/Monroe is on the same potential curve as Rose/Noah--probably a tier below them. However, we have the luxury of possibly getting a 3rd lottery pick talent to add to the core. The next two seasons truly rely on Knight and his ability to mature and produce and lead this team.

GC_STONES · 01-02-2012, 12:32 PM

All that said, Anthony Davis or Drummond would be huge for this team. I'm not sold on Drummond, I want Davis over Andre if we had the choice. AD is the rim protector that we vitally need.

The King · 01-02-2012, 12:34 PM

I don't view Monroe as a franchise big. He's very talented, but he will be a fringe All-Star type, not a guy you build a team around. More of a second fiddle. Knight on the other hand, I believe has franchise PG potential. He gets to the basket with such ease. I LOVE how he splits the double team. He's really effective at the pick and roll. He can split defenders with ease and has the shooting ability to keep defender honest.

GC_STONES · 01-02-2012, 12:41 PM

Agreed, King. Also, he has potential to be an elite defender. He has the demeanor and skills for it.

Knight has the intangibles that a team wants in a franchise PG. He lacks the elite bust like Westbrook/Rose but he has the leadership ability that those two guys lack.

Kstat · 01-02-2012, 12:47 PM

I really don't think he lacks the burst. He isn't as big and he doesn't jump as high, but I don't see him taking a backseat to anyone in terms of raw speed.

DYNOMITE · 01-02-2012, 12:59 PM

Monroe could get there. When he wants to play a low post game he has been pretty good. Monroe might not fully reach his potential until there is someone next to him, 2012 draft pick. We are asking him to do so much right now with little support.

GC_STONES · 01-02-2012, 01:05 PM

Henson or Davis over Drummond.

Kidd-Gilchrist is my favorite prospect overall. If we can't get Davis or Henson in the mid-lotto, I would love to bring MKG in... he's the Matrix redeux

GC_STONES · 01-02-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kstat

I really don't think he lacks the burst. He isn't as big and he doesn't jump as high, but I don't see him taking a backseat to anyone in terms of raw speed.

Knight is just as quick but I've always worried about his ability to finish at the rim after contact at the NBA level. We'll see--he has the floater to compensate for his lack of burst around the rim. BK has everything else besides the elite body and hops for the modern top tier PG. Yet that doesn't mean he can't be Chris Paul/Nash (with defense) type all-nba PG (which is what he will be if he reaches his ceiling).

Kstat · 01-02-2012, 01:21 PM

Drummond is a legit center. Henson is not, and Davis will probably have to hit the weight room for a while to be one. That's the value.

Not saying I wouldn't want Henson at any point, but if both guys are available, I'm taking the raw 6'11" 280 lbs behemoth over the raw 6'8" 210-lb stringbean.

FadedMario · 01-02-2012, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GC_STONES

Henson or Davis over Drummond.

Kidd-Gilchrist is my favorite prospect overall. If we can't get Davis or Henson in the mid-lotto, I would love to bring MKG in... he's the Matrix redeux

I love Henson! Reminds me of a young and more talented John Salley.

Kstat · 01-02-2012, 01:30 PM

That's a pretty good comparison. All things being equal though, we need more out of our first round pick. Henson cannot play center, and he can't play in the post at all. I'd like more than just a 1-dimensonal shot blocker for this shit season.

FadedMario · 01-02-2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kstat

That's a pretty good comparison. All things being equal though, we need more out of our first round pick. Henson cannot play center, and he can't play in the post at all. I'd like more than just a 1-dimensonal shot blocker for this shit season.

Agreed. Wish we had 2 picks in this draft. Henson will probably go between 8-14 and we will probably be picking higher than that. Who knows though? The team actually looked good against a really good and undefeated Pacers team. Our team is learning a new system and hasn't had much time to do it. If we play like we played against Indiana fairly consistently, we could be in the late lotto. Jerebko and Monroe looked extremely legit the other night together. Anyone know what time the game starts tonight?

Kstat · 01-02-2012, 01:51 PM

I think henson will go higher than that, simply because UNC will be playing deep into march, and he'll put up some monster numbers.

A team like the Kings could really use him, especially if they punt on Cousins.

As for the Pacers, they are a good defensive team but dead-last in %FG in the entire league. They are going to have games where they lose simply because their offense is so bad.

FadedMario · 01-02-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kstat

I think henson will go higher than that, simply because UNC will be playing deep into march, and he'll put up some monster numbers.

A team like the Kings could really use him, especially if they punt on Cousins.

As for the Pacers, they are a good defensive team but dead-last in %FG in the entire league. They are going to have games where they lose simply because their offense is so bad.

Wonder how we'll look tonight against Orlando? I don't mind having a rough season if it get's us a good pick - I just would like to be competitive team and have close games with opposing teams.

Kstat · 01-02-2012, 01:58 PM

Orlando is another flakey team that can beat anybody and lose to anybody. They've proven that against us the last two years.

They smashed us at the palace with like 7 guys available to play, and then we went into Orlando and ran them off the floor.

Stefan S · 01-02-2012, 02:29 PM

Monroe will be very very solid. But, I agree, he does not have perennial all-star written all over him.

Knight looks like a leader. May be a steal of this draft.

Stefan S · 01-02-2012, 02:33 PM

So, what is the ceiling on Monroe?
Somewhere in the 'hood of Alonzo Mourning, perhaps?

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-02-2012, 02:48 PM

Mourning was WAY better defensively and more athletic and stronger.

I'd say Kevin Love is his absolute ceiling.

RodimusPrime · 01-02-2012, 02:52 PM

Somewhere around Divac in his prime or the Sabonis the Blazers had. Like them he plays below the rim but is a good rebounder, is a very good passer at his position, and can score but not a go to scorer.

hack · 01-02-2012, 03:41 PM

Divac sounds like a nice comparison. I'm not sure they have exactly the same game, but, roughly, a guy that will get a few All-Star games in and otherwise be a solid part of a 3-4 player core. We should be ecstatic with that result.

Kstat · 01-02-2012, 03:44 PM

I'm not quite sure what Monroe's ceiling is, given that I don't think he's playing his natural position right now.

hack · 01-02-2012, 03:45 PM

One of the bedrocks of this forum is your certainty. Please never again admit to not knowing something or having a definite expectation.

Hobbs · 01-02-2012, 03:57 PM

I think Divac was the guy I compared him to around draft time.

He seems a touch better than Vlade now though. Monroe seems pretty well on target to be a 15 pt 10 reb 1 blk 1.5 st 2-3 ast guy. That's damn good. Beyond those numbers, he seems very consistent in getting those, and that consistency is something you build championship teams on.

papalawrence · 01-02-2012, 03:59 PM

Monroe is still only 21 years old. He strikes me as a guy who will listen to coaches and wants to expand his craft. Imho it's tough to call his ceiling -- but I can see a guy who averages 18-19 and 11 over several seasons and makes 4-6 all-star games. I can also see him being an important piece of a championship contender.......perhaps along the lines of Jack Sikma: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...sikmaja01.html

Medz · 01-02-2012, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobbs

I think Divac was the guy I compared him to around draft time.

He seems a touch better than Vlade now though. Monroe seems pretty well on target to be a 15 pt 10 reb 1 blk 1.5 st 2-3 ast guy. That's damn good. Beyond those numbers, he seems very consistent in getting those, and that consistency is something you build championship teams on.

I think those numbers are very realistic, but his ceiling is somewhere in the 20 and 12 range. There aren't too many big men who can get those numbers consistently, and there's no reason to think he can't be a perennial all-star in the East. Monroe isn't flashy, but that's the type of performance from a big man that leads to wins, and eventually gets noticed/celebrated.

hack · 01-02-2012, 05:10 PM

There are so few true 20/10 guys that it seems out of whack to expect anything near it from a guy that nobody thinks will be a consistent all-star. I'm totally delighted with a contribution that is statistically short of that but includes utilizing his passing talents as well as being at the very least a reasonable man defender.

Stefan S · 01-02-2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kstat

I'm not quite sure what Monroe's ceiling is, given that I don't think he's playing his natural position right now.

The fact is, he seems to love doing dirty work in the low post.
Like yesterday, he loved to bang and he was great at it.
We did not have this sort of player since Ben
(well, we still have Ben for like 10-15 minutes).
Plus, he actually has O skills.

Stefan S · 01-02-2012, 05:14 PM

Actually, I meant Saturday:
Indiana Pacers vs. Detroit Pistons - Box Score - December 31, 2011 - ESPN

His line: 8-12 (most in the low post), 11 boards, 4 offensive, 4 assists
it was a great game by Greg.

Medz · 01-02-2012, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hack

There are so few true 20/10 guys that it seems out of whack to expect anything near it from a guy that nobody thinks will be a consistent all-star. I'm totally delighted with a contribution that is statistically short of that but includes utilizing his passing talents as well as being at the very least a reasonable man defender.

He's been scoring efficiently and at a high percentage under two different coaches now. When you get him some help, more outside shooting, and take the pressure off, that type of player can really flourish in the league. I don't think 20 and 12 is out of the realm of possibility, but I'd be thrilled with 18 and 10.

tin mad dog · 01-02-2012, 08:36 PM

What about Pre-problems Vin Baker for Moose?

I'd be very happy with that out of Greg.

Stefan S · 01-02-2012, 08:50 PM

We definitely play hard and it shows on the boards and in the score box.

If not for our stupid unforced TOs (11 of them) we would be winning.

(Oops, I think I have confused the threads.)

Billl · 01-02-2012, 10:18 PM

I love Monroe, but I don't think he has the mentality to consistently put up enough shots to average 20 ppg. He's going to have a lot of nights where he's a 12/8 guy and acting as a facilitator. He also doesn't have the AA to go up over a double team and still get shots and most NBA teams aren't going to let post guys drop 20 every night without starting to run extra guys at them. That is going to be key. If he is a threat to drop 20+ if you don't send help, then that would be a huge boost to our team offense.

Santos · 01-03-2012, 06:12 AM

My feeling is that once Monroe has another big guy banging inside playing next to him, he'll be free to explore his full offensive ability, and he'll get lots of points out of put backs and things like that. Don't think he'll be a 20/10 guy, but something like 16/8/3(ast) seems reasonable. The good thing with him is that when defenses collapse to avoid him scoring, he is good at passing the ball and finding the open man.

papalawrence · 01-03-2012, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santos

My feeling is that once Monroe has another big guy banging inside playing next to him, he'll be free to explore his full offensive ability, and he'll get lots of points out of put backs and things like that. Don't think he'll be a 20/10 guy, but something like 16/8/3(ast) seems reasonable. The good thing with him is that when defenses collapse to avoid him scoring, he is good at passing the ball and finding the open man.

His rebound ceiling is definitely higher than 8. He averaged 7.5 boards as a rookie in only 27 minutes/game. So far this year he is averaging 8.6 in 29 minutes -- and again, he is only 21. I can see him averaging 11 boards, maybe even higher.

Santos · 01-03-2012, 06:13 PM

Sure, but if we put someone else to play next to him, specially to bang inside, there will be some split in the board numbers.

01-02-2012, 12:32 PM	#104
GC_STONES Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,788 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	All that said, Anthony Davis or Drummond would be huge for this team. I'm not sold on Drummond, I want Davis over Andre if we had the choice. AD is the rim protector that we vitally need. Last edited by GC_STONES; 01-02-2012 at 12:39 PM.

01-02-2012, 01:30 PM	#113
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	That's a pretty good comparison. All things being equal though, we need more out of our first round pick. Henson cannot play center, and he can't play in the post at all. I'd like more than just a 1-dimensonal shot blocker for this shit season. Last edited by Kstat; 01-02-2012 at 01:33 PM.

01-02-2012, 08:36 PM	#132
tin mad dog Starter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island City, NY Posts: 9,787 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	What about Pre-problems Vin Baker for Moose? I'd be very happy with that out of Greg. __________________ 2011- Oh Bismack, where art thou?

01-02-2012, 08:50 PM	#133
Stefan S Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 8,259 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	We definitely play hard and it shows on the boards and in the score box. If not for our stupid unforced TOs (11 of them) we would be winning. (Oops, I think I have confused the threads.) Last edited by Stefan S; 01-02-2012 at 09:13 PM.

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01-02-2012, 11:36 AM	#101
Medz Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 3,211 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Moose and Knight are great building blocks for the future. If they both meet their potential, you have a franchise PG and a franchise big man. Not a bad way to start the rebuilding process. We're 3 years away, but at least we finally have some young talent on the team.

01-02-2012, 11:44 AM	#102
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,487 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I do think the pistons are paying for past years attitude....BUT....if theycontinue to play with effort they will build a fan base again. If JJ continues to play the way he has this season, if moose, Ben G, Knight play the way they have the last few games....the fans will come around. IF u throw in a major trade t perk interest the fans will come take a look....but they do not have the buzz right now that the other teams do.... the Lions...in playoffs for the first time in a while...numerous players talked about on a national level...seem to be building towards alot of good things The Tigers...players with national interest...playoff run...seem to be building towards alot of good things The Red Wings...they just keep pluggingalong....they have players talked about nationally...they play as a team...right now they are thought of as an automatic playoff team...and always a threat to go deep deep into playoffs... Pistons are on the down swing...but maybe thy are starting their up path

01-02-2012, 12:34 PM	#105
The King Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,900 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I don't view Monroe as a franchise big. He's very talented, but he will be a fringe All-Star type, not a guy you build a team around. More of a second fiddle. Knight on the other hand, I believe has franchise PG potential. He gets to the basket with such ease. I LOVE how he splits the double team. He's really effective at the pick and roll. He can split defenders with ease and has the shooting ability to keep defender honest.

01-02-2012, 12:41 PM	#106
GC_STONES Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,788 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Agreed, King. Also, he has potential to be an elite defender. He has the demeanor and skills for it. Knight has the intangibles that a team wants in a franchise PG. He lacks the elite bust like Westbrook/Rose but he has the leadership ability that those two guys lack.

01-02-2012, 12:47 PM	#107
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I really don't think he lacks the burst. He isn't as big and he doesn't jump as high, but I don't see him taking a backseat to anyone in terms of raw speed.

01-02-2012, 12:59 PM	#108
DYNOMITE Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,804 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Monroe could get there. When he wants to play a low post game he has been pretty good. Monroe might not fully reach his potential until there is someone next to him, 2012 draft pick. We are asking him to do so much right now with little support.

01-02-2012, 01:05 PM	#109
GC_STONES Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,788 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Henson or Davis over Drummond. Kidd-Gilchrist is my favorite prospect overall. If we can't get Davis or Henson in the mid-lotto, I would love to bring MKG in... he's the Matrix redeux

01-02-2012, 01:21 PM	#111
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Drummond is a legit center. Henson is not, and Davis will probably have to hit the weight room for a while to be one. That's the value. Not saying I wouldn't want Henson at any point, but if both guys are available, I'm taking the raw 6'11" 280 lbs behemoth over the raw 6'8" 210-lb stringbean.

01-02-2012, 01:51 PM	#115
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I think henson will go higher than that, simply because UNC will be playing deep into march, and he'll put up some monster numbers. A team like the Kings could really use him, especially if they punt on Cousins. As for the Pacers, they are a good defensive team but dead-last in %FG in the entire league. They are going to have games where they lose simply because their offense is so bad.

01-02-2012, 01:58 PM	#117
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Orlando is another flakey team that can beat anybody and lose to anybody. They've proven that against us the last two years. They smashed us at the palace with like 7 guys available to play, and then we went into Orlando and ran them off the floor.

01-02-2012, 02:29 PM	#118
Stefan S Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 8,259 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Monroe will be very very solid. But, I agree, he does not have perennial all-star written all over him. Knight looks like a leader. May be a steal of this draft.

01-02-2012, 02:33 PM	#119
Stefan S Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 8,259 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	So, what is the ceiling on Monroe? Somewhere in the 'hood of Alonzo Mourning, perhaps?

01-02-2012, 02:48 PM	#120
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Mourning was WAY better defensively and more athletic and stronger. I'd say Kevin Love is his absolute ceiling.

01-02-2012, 02:52 PM	#121
RodimusPrime Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 984 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Somewhere around Divac in his prime or the Sabonis the Blazers had. Like them he plays below the rim but is a good rebounder, is a very good passer at his position, and can score but not a go to scorer.

01-02-2012, 03:41 PM	#122
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Divac sounds like a nice comparison. I'm not sure they have exactly the same game, but, roughly, a guy that will get a few All-Star games in and otherwise be a solid part of a 3-4 player core. We should be ecstatic with that result.

01-02-2012, 03:44 PM	#123
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I'm not quite sure what Monroe's ceiling is, given that I don't think he's playing his natural position right now.

01-02-2012, 03:45 PM	#124
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	One of the bedrocks of this forum is your certainty. Please never again admit to not knowing something or having a definite expectation.

01-02-2012, 03:57 PM	#125
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I think Divac was the guy I compared him to around draft time. He seems a touch better than Vlade now though. Monroe seems pretty well on target to be a 15 pt 10 reb 1 blk 1.5 st 2-3 ast guy. That's damn good. Beyond those numbers, he seems very consistent in getting those, and that consistency is something you build championship teams on.

01-02-2012, 03:59 PM	#126
papalawrence Water Boy Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 859 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Monroe is still only 21 years old. He strikes me as a guy who will listen to coaches and wants to expand his craft. Imho it's tough to call his ceiling -- but I can see a guy who averages 18-19 and 11 over several seasons and makes 4-6 all-star games. I can also see him being an important piece of a championship contender.......perhaps along the lines of Jack Sikma: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...sikmaja01.html

01-02-2012, 05:10 PM	#128
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	There are so few true 20/10 guys that it seems out of whack to expect anything near it from a guy that nobody thinks will be a consistent all-star. I'm totally delighted with a contribution that is statistically short of that but includes utilizing his passing talents as well as being at the very least a reasonable man defender.

01-02-2012, 05:14 PM	#130
Stefan S Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 8,259 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Actually, I meant Saturday: Indiana Pacers vs. Detroit Pistons - Box Score - December 31, 2011 - ESPN His line: 8-12 (most in the low post), 11 boards, 4 offensive, 4 assists it was a great game by Greg.

01-02-2012, 10:18 PM	#134
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I love Monroe, but I don't think he has the mentality to consistently put up enough shots to average 20 ppg. He's going to have a lot of nights where he's a 12/8 guy and acting as a facilitator. He also doesn't have the AA to go up over a double team and still get shots and most NBA teams aren't going to let post guys drop 20 every night without starting to run extra guys at them. That is going to be key. If he is a threat to drop 20+ if you don't send help, then that would be a huge boost to our team offense.

01-03-2012, 06:12 AM	#135
Santos Water Boy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 143 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	My feeling is that once Monroe has another big guy banging inside playing next to him, he'll be free to explore his full offensive ability, and he'll get lots of points out of put backs and things like that. Don't think he'll be a 20/10 guy, but something like 16/8/3(ast) seems reasonable. The good thing with him is that when defenses collapse to avoid him scoring, he is good at passing the ball and finding the open man.

01-03-2012, 06:13 PM	#137
Santos Water Boy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 143 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Sure, but if we put someone else to play next to him, specially to bang inside, there will be some split in the board numbers.