Chicago @ Detroit Wed Jan 04 - 7:30 ET Game Thread - Page 3

Kstat · 01-05-2012, 04:42 PM

Yeah, but that stat is skewed a bit by his erratic start. He only had 1 turnover last game, and he was being trapped constantly.

He's getting better.

hack · 01-05-2012, 04:45 PM

Bynum down the stretch in the fourth, with the team making a run, tells you what you need to know for now about how Frank feels on this topic. But the learning curve is steepest at the beginning, and you expect a huge difference in the first 40 or so games. I think we'll probably see Knight getting starts by March.

(Kyrie Irving's at 2.4:1, but he's really just a scoring PG only...)

Billl · 01-05-2012, 04:49 PM

He only had 1 TO last night but he only had 1 assist to go with it.

Anyway, I agree he is getting better and will likely continue to get better. He's currently dead last in assist to turnover ratio among PG's. He's got a lot of work to do before any coach is going to hand over the reigns to him.

Kstat · 01-05-2012, 04:52 PM

Running a team isn't always about getting assists, though. Especially against a trapping defense, often the hockey assist is the right play. Knight had a few of those yesterday.

It was just one game, but he's steadily gotten better since the first week.

I'd like to stress that Knight isn't being handled with kid gloves, either. He isn't being handed the same easy tasks that most rookie PGs get, to limit his turnovers.

As I said back in preseason, he's been getting the full playbook from day one. He's being asked to make big-boy decisions. His assist/turnover ratio is going to be bad all season long, but he's going to be way ahead of the other PGs in his class by next year.

mn3 · 01-05-2012, 05:29 PM

Don't forget, Knight is playing on a team with a new coach, new system installed - and not really installed; it'll be installed over the next couple of months -, no training camp, no summer league, no working this summer with Arnie Kandor.

He's being asked to be the point guard on a team that doesn't know the offense well at all.

He'll be a lot better for the experience, but it's not like this team is ready-built for him to be successful right out of the chute.

The King · 01-05-2012, 06:12 PM

I still can't believe we took Daye in that draft with all those PG. Fucking Dumars, man.

FadedMario · 01-05-2012, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hack

I love that you have a 12-year-old antiques hound for a son. LOL! And, good for him!

x2 - That's awesome!

Stefan S · 01-05-2012, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The King

I still can't believe we took Daye in that draft with all those PG. Fucking Dumars, man.

How do you mean?
It looks like all (most?) good PGs went before our pick: 2009 NBA Draft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

We could have had Blair, though. Bt, to put things in perspective, Blair gets only about 20 minutes in San Anton, and half of it during playoffs, because he is such a D liability.

RugbyPike#11 · 01-05-2012, 08:18 PM

Lawson and Collison went 3 and 6 picks after Daye. I'm glad we have Knight, but I would love to have Knight AND Collison/Lawson at point guard!

The King · 01-05-2012, 08:22 PM

Lawson, Holiday and Collison. Lawson was my clear cut guy that year to draft. He played at a different speed than guys in college. He's proven to be a hell of a player in the NBA.

As for Blair, he had the major knee issues. That's why teams passed.

Whiteman · 01-05-2012, 08:26 PM

Jrue Holiday out of those three is who I want. That guy is a stud.

hack · 01-05-2012, 08:29 PM

No point in pining after Collison or Lawson. Joe just simply doesn't do small PGs. It never would have happened here.

The King · 01-05-2012, 08:29 PM

Will Bynum?

The King · 01-05-2012, 08:30 PM

Hell, all three of those PG are really good. I take Lawson over the other two, but anyone could make a case for all three. Just a matter of preference.

hack · 01-05-2012, 08:39 PM

Starter/backup. I'm on your side -- Lawson was clearly going to be a player. I just no longer bother with small PGs in the draft b/c there's no reason to get my hopes up.

ghandi · 01-05-2012, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kstat

Among NBA centers, Greg Monroe currently ranks 3rd in scoring, 3rd in assists, 5th in %FG, 7th in rebounds and 14th in steals.

The flipside? He's tied for 41st in blocked shots. Only Kwame Brown, Jason Thmopson and Memo are worse.

I think the Pistons will take that though......We've been saying all along that the Pistons need a defensive big to pair with him and those stats probably bear that out.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-05-2012, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FadedMario

Most of my personal stuff is Detroit athletes from late 1800's to present day auto's/GU's. The stuff I buy/sell to make money is always newer stuff. I don't bust packs open or anything. I usually just drop around $1000 on a player before they become stars. Sometimes I get burnt - but I've had some real nice paydays. 2005 and newer (RC Auto's) sell really well. My wife owns a rental company that (that specializes in parties and weddings), that's our primary job in the household. But honestly I make decent money with the cards. I also sell antiques/vintage toys.

If you ever looking to get back into it or would like something specific - just let me know. I sell it to you at cost.

I might be interested in some AJ Green Rookie Cards...Maybe Derrick Rose.

Do you have any of those?

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-05-2012, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteman

Jrue Holiday out of those three is who I want. That guy is a stud.

During the draft, Holiday was projected to go much higher than he went. He would have made sense.

hack · 01-05-2012, 10:57 PM

That was a strong draft, but ultimately at the 15th pick a bench shooter isn't a bad outcome. It looks like that's what he'll be, once expectations get realistic and he earns his minutes. That's fine.

Orwellian O. · 01-05-2012, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mn3

Monroe's a high quality player, and he's going to get a lot better as he matures as a pro ballplayer and as he's surrounded by better and more experienced talent. He seems like the kind of guy who will get a a lot better on great teams. When we surround him and Knight with some other great scorers - those two could be every bit as great as Rose and Noah are at creating for others. Similarly, when we pair Monroe with a outstanding no-fly-zone basket defender, he'll be a lot more effective on D as well.

JJ will be part of the solution going forward - he's an all around good NBA player. There really isn't anything he doesn't do pretty damn well.

JJ is generally an awful defender. However, he does hustle for rebounds...so he isn't useless on D...just can't stop his man...

Money23 · 01-06-2012, 02:22 AM

I don't think he's awful in the sense that he CAN'T improve, though. That's an important qualification to make. I bet you he's MUCH better by the end of this season. He has hustle and athleticism, and isn't afraid to do dirty work. Guys like that can be brought along to defending.

hack · 01-06-2012, 09:05 AM

Jerebko? He could have a bit more burst next year, too.

Billl · 01-06-2012, 09:36 AM

Are the people claiming JJ is getting lit up actually watching the games? He's faced a lot of bigtime scorers so far and they have all been kinda average against him. He's certainly not a defensive stopper, but he isn't getting lit up. It isn't like when we put CV in and the Bulls go at him immediately for easy buckets. CV is playing guys honest with no double teams and keeping them at or below their normal scoring.

If JJ can get some of his explosiveness back and start snagging some more defensive boards in traffic, he'll be a very well rounded frontcourt player.

FadedMario · 01-06-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billl

Are the people claiming JJ is getting lit up actually watching the games? He's faced a lot of bigtime scorers so far and they have all been kinda average against him. He's certainly not a defensive stopper, but he isn't getting lit up. It isn't like when we put CV in and the Bulls go at him immediately for easy buckets. CV is playing guys honest with no double teams and keeping them at or below their normal scoring.

If JJ can get some of his explosiveness back and start snagging some more defensive boards in traffic, he'll be a very well rounded frontcourt player.

Jerebko has been great so far. He's still young too. I also think he's a PF. I know most people think he's better suited at the 3 - but i don't. I think we will draft a C/PF this draft and Jerebko will eventually be our 6th man.

I also think we should try starting Stuckey at the 2 and throw Knight into the fire. I know he's turning the ball over but that is getting better.

Knight
Stuckey
Prince
Jerebko
Monroe

Gordon

Try it out and see what happens. I know this lineup would play better defensively. We need to try it out and see if Stuckey get's some better scoring opportunities early to get him going. We can still give Gordon 30 minutes a night with this rotation.

Kstat · 01-06-2012, 01:32 PM

Knight has already been thrown into the fire. I don't understand the obsession with starting him.

King Mob · 01-06-2012, 01:33 PM

That's a move you make when you see Knight breaking out against backup PGs, which he isn't yet. If you want him to play more minutes, then play him more minutes; if there's 30 minutes to be had off the bench for Gordon at the 2, then there's 30 minutes available for Knight, who can play either backcourt spot.

FadedMario · 01-06-2012, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kstat

Knight has already been thrown into the fire. I don't understand the obsession with starting him.

He's not the main reason I want him to start. I want Stuckey to start at SG.

Kstat · 01-06-2012, 01:41 PM

Stuckey plays SG when Knight is in the game anyway. It's just not a starting duo yet.

Orwellian O. · 01-06-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billl

Are the people claiming JJ is getting lit up actually watching the games? He's faced a lot of bigtime scorers so far and they have all been kinda average against him. He's certainly not a defensive stopper, but he isn't getting lit up. It isn't like when we put CV in and the Bulls go at him immediately for easy buckets. CV is playing guys honest with no double teams and keeping them at or below their normal scoring.

If JJ can get some of his explosiveness back and start snagging some more defensive boards in traffic, he'll be a very well rounded frontcourt player.

JJ is getting lit up. Both in the half-court and in transition. He is no good as a help defender either.

It is a bit puzzling why he is so bad given his height and general size (he has good size) and his willingness to hustle.

I expect him to improve, but he has a long ways to go.

Stefan S · 01-06-2012, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orwellian O.

JJ is getting lit up. Both in the half-court and in transition. He is no good as a help defender either.

It is a bit puzzling why he is so bad given his height and general size (he has good size) and his willingness to hustle.

I expect him to improve, but he has a long ways to go.

I have not seen him being lit up (not like CV, at least) or being a pathetic defender in other ways.

I would agree he might be a bit slower than he was at the very beginning when he joined us, when sometimes he would defend at 4 different positions. It could be he has not yet regain his full speed after injury. Or, perhaps, he is heavier because he put on weight necessary to defend PFs.

mn3 · 01-06-2012, 03:39 PM

JJ's part of a team defense that is just learning the system and how each other plays. Individually, JJ has great feet and athleticism and is terrific at staying between his man and the basket. (And he's just getting his BB rhythm back after his long layoff).

I have no idea why anyone would ever say that he's been a poor defender. In the NBA, every player gets beat now and then - and on non-well-oiled team defenses, 1 guy being off in the rotations or assignments causes a lot of breakdowns.

JJ's been one of our best defenders, but until the team really establishes its defensive roles and they learn to play together, nobody on this club is going to look like a good team defender.

Stefan S · 01-06-2012, 03:40 PM

Well said.

Orwellian O. · 01-06-2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mn3

JJ's part of a team defense that is just learning the system and how each other plays. Individually, JJ has great feet and athleticism and is terrific at staying between his man and the basket. (And he's just getting his BB rhythm back after his long layoff).

I have no idea why anyone would ever say that he's been a poor defender. In the NBA, every player gets beat now and then - and on non-well-oiled team defenses, 1 guy being off in the rotations or assignments causes a lot of breakdowns.

JJ's been one of our best defenders, but until the team really establishes its defensive roles and they learn to play together, nobody on this club is going to look like a good team defender.

JJ has been a bad defender. I think he is better than CV,however, given that he will track down loose balls/rebounds.

That doesn't mean he is a bad player. He has been surprisingly good so far.

He just needs to get better at D lest he gets tagged as somebody like Gordon who has the stigma of somebody who can score, but not defend.

Kstat · 01-06-2012, 06:23 PM

Jonas's weakness is off the ball and his lack of strength in defending the post. He's been exploited in both areas repeatedly.

Those two issues aside, he's very good defending players facing up, and on the perimeter. It's not as if he's been a lost cause.

Orwellian O. · 01-06-2012, 06:35 PM

Certainly, JJ has a future as a key player in the frontcourt rotation once the Pistons get another starting quality PF/C.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-07-2012, 12:38 AM

CV may be one of the worst defenders at PF in the league.

Boozer absolutely abused him when he got in the game. The bad part was that CV was trying too!

fredsue · 01-07-2012, 10:17 AM

From What I saw JJ did much better against against West in the second half of the first game and pretty good against him in the second game.

Also on one specific play against Tyler Hans... he stood his ground and made him take a bad shot. TH got the rebound but that was more on Maxie IMO than JJ because Max was out of position...team defense(rebounding)

On defense JJ is doing alot of high hedging and having to recover to the basket. That falls alot on team defense and that will come.

He has had his issues with power players at time but I can live with what he brings....I want improvement of course but not worries about him....

The King · 01-07-2012, 11:53 AM

JJ is coming off an achilles. Give him some time.

Stefan S · 01-08-2012, 10:10 PM

Datsyuk scores in OT and, after coming from behind in the 3rd, the Wings beat Chicago in their ice.

That is sweet!

It also means we are leading the division (even though, technically speaking, it's a tree way tie).

01-05-2012, 04:52 PM	#104
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Running a team isn't always about getting assists, though. Especially against a trapping defense, often the hockey assist is the right play. Knight had a few of those yesterday. It was just one game, but he's steadily gotten better since the first week. I'd like to stress that Knight isn't being handled with kid gloves, either. He isn't being handed the same easy tasks that most rookie PGs get, to limit his turnovers. As I said back in preseason, he's been getting the full playbook from day one. He's being asked to make big-boy decisions. His assist/turnover ratio is going to be bad all season long, but he's going to be way ahead of the other PGs in his class by next year. Last edited by Kstat; 01-05-2012 at 04:58 PM.

01-06-2012, 06:23 PM	#134
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Jonas's weakness is off the ball and his lack of strength in defending the post. He's been exploited in both areas repeatedly. Those two issues aside, he's very good defending players facing up, and on the perimeter. It's not as if he's been a lost cause. Last edited by Kstat; 01-07-2012 at 01:33 PM.

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01-05-2012, 04:42 PM	#101
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Yeah, but that stat is skewed a bit by his erratic start. He only had 1 turnover last game, and he was being trapped constantly. He's getting better.

01-05-2012, 04:45 PM	#102
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Bynum down the stretch in the fourth, with the team making a run, tells you what you need to know for now about how Frank feels on this topic. But the learning curve is steepest at the beginning, and you expect a huge difference in the first 40 or so games. I think we'll probably see Knight getting starts by March. (Kyrie Irving's at 2.4:1, but he's really just a scoring PG only...)

01-05-2012, 04:49 PM	#103
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	He only had 1 TO last night but he only had 1 assist to go with it. Anyway, I agree he is getting better and will likely continue to get better. He's currently dead last in assist to turnover ratio among PG's. He's got a lot of work to do before any coach is going to hand over the reigns to him.

01-05-2012, 05:29 PM	#105
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	Don't forget, Knight is playing on a team with a new coach, new system installed - and not really installed; it'll be installed over the next couple of months -, no training camp, no summer league, no working this summer with Arnie Kandor. He's being asked to be the point guard on a team that doesn't know the offense well at all. He'll be a lot better for the experience, but it's not like this team is ready-built for him to be successful right out of the chute.

01-05-2012, 06:12 PM	#106
The King Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,900 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I still can't believe we took Daye in that draft with all those PG. Fucking Dumars, man.

01-05-2012, 08:18 PM	#109
RugbyPike#11 Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 1,153 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Lawson and Collison went 3 and 6 picks after Daye. I'm glad we have Knight, but I would love to have Knight AND Collison/Lawson at point guard!

01-05-2012, 08:22 PM	#110
The King Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,900 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Lawson, Holiday and Collison. Lawson was my clear cut guy that year to draft. He played at a different speed than guys in college. He's proven to be a hell of a player in the NBA. As for Blair, he had the major knee issues. That's why teams passed.

01-05-2012, 08:26 PM	#111
Whiteman Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,666 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Jrue Holiday out of those three is who I want. That guy is a stud.

01-05-2012, 08:29 PM	#112
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	No point in pining after Collison or Lawson. Joe just simply doesn't do small PGs. It never would have happened here.

01-05-2012, 08:29 PM	#113
The King Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,900 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Will Bynum?

01-05-2012, 08:30 PM	#114
The King Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,900 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Hell, all three of those PG are really good. I take Lawson over the other two, but anyone could make a case for all three. Just a matter of preference.

01-05-2012, 08:39 PM	#115
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Starter/backup. I'm on your side -- Lawson was clearly going to be a player. I just no longer bother with small PGs in the draft b/c there's no reason to get my hopes up.

01-05-2012, 10:57 PM	#119
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	That was a strong draft, but ultimately at the 15th pick a bench shooter isn't a bad outcome. It looks like that's what he'll be, once expectations get realistic and he earns his minutes. That's fine.

01-06-2012, 02:22 AM	#121
Money23 Sixth Man Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: F-f-f-f-Flintown Posts: 3,941 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I don't think he's awful in the sense that he CAN'T improve, though. That's an important qualification to make. I bet you he's MUCH better by the end of this season. He has hustle and athleticism, and isn't afraid to do dirty work. Guys like that can be brought along to defending.

01-06-2012, 09:05 AM	#122
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Jerebko? He could have a bit more burst next year, too.

01-06-2012, 09:36 AM	#123
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Are the people claiming JJ is getting lit up actually watching the games? He's faced a lot of bigtime scorers so far and they have all been kinda average against him. He's certainly not a defensive stopper, but he isn't getting lit up. It isn't like when we put CV in and the Bulls go at him immediately for easy buckets. CV is playing guys honest with no double teams and keeping them at or below their normal scoring. If JJ can get some of his explosiveness back and start snagging some more defensive boards in traffic, he'll be a very well rounded frontcourt player.

01-06-2012, 01:32 PM	#125
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Knight has already been thrown into the fire. I don't understand the obsession with starting him.

01-06-2012, 01:33 PM	#126
King Mob Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,448 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	That's a move you make when you see Knight breaking out against backup PGs, which he isn't yet. If you want him to play more minutes, then play him more minutes; if there's 30 minutes to be had off the bench for Gordon at the 2, then there's 30 minutes available for Knight, who can play either backcourt spot.

01-06-2012, 01:41 PM	#128
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Stuckey plays SG when Knight is in the game anyway. It's just not a starting duo yet.

01-06-2012, 03:39 PM	#131
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	JJ's part of a team defense that is just learning the system and how each other plays. Individually, JJ has great feet and athleticism and is terrific at staying between his man and the basket. (And he's just getting his BB rhythm back after his long layoff). I have no idea why anyone would ever say that he's been a poor defender. In the NBA, every player gets beat now and then - and on non-well-oiled team defenses, 1 guy being off in the rotations or assignments causes a lot of breakdowns. JJ's been one of our best defenders, but until the team really establishes its defensive roles and they learn to play together, nobody on this club is going to look like a good team defender.

01-06-2012, 03:40 PM	#132
Stefan S Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 8,259 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Well said.

01-06-2012, 06:35 PM	#135
Orwellian O. Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,819 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Certainly, JJ has a future as a key player in the frontcourt rotation once the Pistons get another starting quality PF/C.

01-07-2012, 12:38 AM	#136
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	CV may be one of the worst defenders at PF in the league. Boozer absolutely abused him when he got in the game. The bad part was that CV was trying too!

01-07-2012, 10:17 AM	#137
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,487 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	From What I saw JJ did much better against against West in the second half of the first game and pretty good against him in the second game. Also on one specific play against Tyler Hans... he stood his ground and made him take a bad shot. TH got the rebound but that was more on Maxie IMO than JJ because Max was out of position...team defense(rebounding) On defense JJ is doing alot of high hedging and having to recover to the basket. That falls alot on team defense and that will come. He has had his issues with power players at time but I can live with what he brings....I want improvement of course but not worries about him....

01-07-2012, 11:53 AM	#138
The King Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,900 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	JJ is coming off an achilles. Give him some time.

01-08-2012, 10:10 PM	#139
Stefan S Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 8,259 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Datsyuk scores in OT and, after coming from behind in the 3rd, the Wings beat Chicago in their ice. That is sweet! It also means we are leading the division (even though, technically speaking, it's a tree way tie).