Pistons at Bucks: Delfino or Gordon?

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 08:27 PM

Knight's been hot so far.

Kstat · 01-12-2012, 08:29 PM

Watching Jonas get torn apart by Jon leuer is embarrassing. His defense is reaching Villanueva levels.

At some point, frank needs to reexamine why were starting a guy that can't play offense or defense...

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 08:31 PM

Leur has been very good this year. Not that that makes Jonas sucking balls any better.

Stuckey getting in the game now.

Kstat · 01-12-2012, 08:33 PM

Brandon Knight is growing up... Much more confident attacking the rim.

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 08:35 PM

Glad Stuckey is back. He's not great most of the time, but he is better on D than our other guards and he brings a different dimension to our attack.

Kstat · 01-12-2012, 08:42 PM

I really missed Rodney's defense and hustle.

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 09:07 PM

Let Milwaukee get away from us there at the end of the 2nd quarter. We were hanging pretty tough before that.

FadedMario · 01-12-2012, 09:10 PM

Knight's looking good - finally getting to the free throw line a little bit. Monroe is also playing a nice game.

Win or lose - would be nice to see Knight score 20 (or more) tonight and Monroe have a 20 and 10 game.

whoDean · 01-12-2012, 09:38 PM

Monroe is cleaning up Prince's misses quite well

whoDean · 01-12-2012, 09:42 PM

Pistons D in the paint is nonexistent

Kstat · 01-12-2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoDean

Pistons D in the paint is nonexistent

I don't ever expect that to change sibling as Jonas is starting next to Monroe.

mn3 · 01-12-2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoDean

Monroe is cleaning up Prince's misses quite well

When the Pistons go to the bench at PF, we come in with Jason Maxiell who is proven to be one of the worst defensive rebounders I've ever seen in my life. This leaves Monroe in their alone to rebound, since Tay Prince is one of the worst defensive rebounders I've ever seen in my life.

We have a wonderful chance to be the worst team in the league this season. I doubt we'll win 10 games.

That said, Monroe continues to impress, and Knight has had his moments too. Someday, when the Pistons fill out their team, they'll actually have players who knock down their perimeter shots, and Knight's assist totals will start shooting up there.

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 10:05 PM

Monroe and Knight doing damage tonight. Knight has 20 points on 9 shots.

Dave Bing · 01-12-2012, 10:10 PM

with just 1 assist.

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 10:11 PM

But it was a pretty one.

He's clearly got work to do, but he just has clearly has been good for a rook.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:11 PM

That's not what I want to see but at least he's contributing something.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:12 PM

Wish I had a link that worked. That first row thing crapped out.

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 10:13 PM

The biggest thing he has to work on are the turnovers. Not just cutting them down, but cutting the kinds of them down. It's one thing to get called for a charge, but it's much, much worse to get picked at the top of the key.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:14 PM

Big numbers for Big Greg tonight. He's as encouraging as the rest are discouraging.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:15 PM

No kidding getting picked there is like an automatic two points the other way.

mn3 · 01-12-2012, 10:15 PM

Monroe is terrific. Just one hellofa player. His offensive game has developed way beyond anything I thought possible in just one offseason. I'm trying to think of a player who he's starting to remind me of on offense, but nobody comes to mind right now.

He's smooth, has a lot of go-to moves now, shoots really well and makes shots with both hands.

Certainly, we've got to surround him with the right type of forwards and centers. Obviously we need physical guys who can rebound and defend - but we also need those same guys, at the minimum, to have the ability to catch and finish shots because he's going to be a great distributor.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:16 PM

Hey our point guard just doubled his assist total on one play and our center broke 30.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:17 PM

I'd take Carlos Delfino back in a second if Milwaukee would swap him for Ben Gordon. And that's not to say that Delfino is great.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:19 PM

We're making a run and then... Beng.

mn3 · 01-12-2012, 10:25 PM

Since I'm not an expert in the game of BB, I continue to be baffled as to why Tay has the reputation of being a high IQ player. He and Ben Gordon have completely F'd up down the stretch.

WTF was he doing on the play with about 35 seconds left when he decided to be the point guard, keep the ball out of Knight's hands and throw up that steaming pile of poop air-ball from the corner?

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:26 PM

Would've liked to get the win here but so it goes. Better games for some of the fellas.

Hobbs · 01-12-2012, 10:27 PM

We could have mailed it in a few times tonight, but fought hard. Good sign. Monroe and Knight were our best players. Good sign that too.

Monroe is a legit all-star level big. Defensively he has some real issues, but offensively he's everything you'd want right now.

mn3 · 01-12-2012, 10:27 PM

One aspect of Monroe's game - with the ball around the basket is starting to remind me of a young Kevin McHale. A poor man's version. I cannot imagine Monroe will ever be that good. But tonight he's dominating one of the better D centers around in Bogut.

mn3 · 01-12-2012, 10:30 PM

As bad a team as we are, I wonder if Monroe has a legitimate chance to be on the all-star team. With Horford out for a few months, his odds have improved.

Inbetweengame · 01-12-2012, 10:30 PM

I was thinking about the match-up with Bogut too. I like that Brandon Knight found his shot and I like that we kept fighting. I also like that we lost (try to be positive right?) closer to the number one pick.

DYNOMITE · 01-12-2012, 10:37 PM

Offensively, Monroe plays like Duncan.

FadedMario · 01-12-2012, 10:39 PM

Holy shit - Monroe put up 1996 Shaq numbers!

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-12-2012, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mn3

As bad a team as we are, I wonder if Monroe has a legitimate chance to be on the all-star team. With Horford out for a few months, his odds have improved.

The Pistons really don't have much TV exposure so that may hurt some.

I'd say he is an All-Star in the East.

rpmfla · 01-12-2012, 10:51 PM

Ben Gordon should not dribble or pass. They should just run plays to set him up to shoot, which he is very good at. He is horrible when he tries to be a creator or distributor.

Monroe was so confident tonight it was fun to watch. He had an amazing array of moves and it looks like the game has slowed down for him.

Max is rarely ready for the pass under the hoop. It is like he sees the PG driving and just starts thinking about trying to rebound/put back. Perhaps playing with Stuckey convinced him that PGs never pass when they drive to the hoop.

I still like Jonas even though he is going through a rough time. He is still only in his second season so he can get better. You know he give a ton of effort.

It was more fun to watch tonight except for the end of the 1st half. The Pistons had the ball and a chance to cut the lead to one and then all hell broke loose. The Bucks are tough when they shoot so well from the 3, but for a lot of game we actually looked as good if not better. I haven't been able to say that much this season! No moral victories but I'd say this was a small step forward.

detroitsportsfan · 01-12-2012, 11:21 PM

Bob Lanier. That's the first player I thought of when I first saw Greg Monroe play. Bob Lanier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mn3

Monroe is terrific. Just one hellofa player. His offensive game has developed way beyond anything I thought possible in just one offseason. I'm trying to think of a player who he's starting to remind me of on offense, but nobody comes to mind right now.

He's smooth, has a lot of go-to moves now, shoots really well and makes shots with both hands.

Certainly, we've got to surround him with the right type of forwards and centers. Obviously we need physical guys who can rebound and defend - but we also need those same guys, at the minimum, to have the ability to catch and finish shots because he's going to be a great distributor.

detroitsportsfan · 01-12-2012, 11:22 PM

This team is poop. Seriously. Poop. Are they really that bad??? Some changes have to be made. Coach has to start making changes in the rotation at least. Maybe start Big Ben (sadly) again or something.

FadedMario · 01-13-2012, 01:55 AM

Justin_Rogers

Quote:

Greg Monroe is the fifth youngest player in past 25 years to accomplish 32/16 behind LeBron, Shaq, Amar'e, Webber and Joe Johnson.

whoDean · 01-13-2012, 10:06 AM

Nothing needs to be done, the team is playing hard and losing, the theme for this season.

Billl · 01-13-2012, 10:22 AM

Things need to be done - just not by Frank. He's playing the young guys and letting them take their lumps. The rest is on Joe to start putting together some more talent. ie another frontcourt player.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-13-2012, 10:48 AM

Sadly, if adding or playing more veterans is going to result in a few more meaningless wins, we may be better off losing playing the young players. The draft pick is our hope for the future.

ghandi · 01-13-2012, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoDean

Nothing needs to be done, the team is playing hard and losing, the theme for this season.

Well msot of us dont like that losing part and the attendance is showing it.....

rpmfla · 01-13-2012, 11:19 AM

Right, no one likes to watch night after night of losing. However, if they were a bunch of young guys giving their all and gradually progressing, we'd feel better. As it is, it seems to me that the young guys that play are the best players on the team and the old guys are not holding up their end. Ben Gordon could be an awesome asset if he was used in such a way to get him open looks (other than that stupid Rip Hamilton run around like crazy nonsense!). He is a great shooter who too often hesitates to shoot.
Tay is a slightly less interested version of Tay. The offense always bogged down with him and it still does, and he no longer is a very effective defender.
Ben Wallace is really the only old guy who still has a mainly positive effect on the game, which is pretty amazing.
Losing sucks, and losing while playing horrible basketball sucks worse.

Monroe is better than I thought he'd be, which makes me think basketball IQ can go a long way to overcome a lack of supreme athleticism.

Daye has been a disappointment obviously, but I do think he has the raw talent to be a great player. He needs to really dedicate himself to improving his body and working much harder on the defensive end of the court.

Will Bynum does some amazing things on the court...amazingly good and amazingly bad. He would be a star in D-League.

Macklin looks like a huge puppy out there on the court, but I think if he gets more PT and learns the game and calms down he could be a good PF in the league. I'm not a fan of Max so I'd like to see Vernon get a few of Max's minutes.

mn3 · 01-13-2012, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel Kiper Jr

Sadly, if adding or playing more veterans is going to result in a few more meaningless wins, we may be better off losing playing the young players. The draft pick is our hope for the future.

Yes. No matter what else happens this year, if Knight and Monroe come out of this as young, emerging stars in this league (and Monroe is giving every indication that he's on track to being an all-star caliber player), and if we get a star big man in the 2012 draft, then we'll suddenly have a great, but very young, core. Sure it'd be sweet if Stuckey proves to be a great partner for Knight, and if Daye and Gordon start to thrive, but as far as I'm concerned, the key is Knight, Monroe and the 2012 pick, and additions to that core from this roster would be gravy.

But, I think it potentially gets better than that. We're so young as a team that even if that happens, we'll still likely be a 2013 lotto team. So, to our core, we'll add a potentially really fine player in the 2013 draft. We could be a team like Okl City that stocks itself with a lot of outstanding young talent.

That's a lot of "ifs" - but is there another viable way to become a championship capable squad?

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-13-2012, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mn3

Yes. No matter what else happens this year, if Knight and Monroe come out of this as young, emerging stars in this league (and Monroe is giving every indication that he's on track to being an all-star caliber player), and if we get a star big man in the 2012 draft, then we'll suddenly have a great, but very young, core. Sure it'd be sweet if Stuckey proves to be a great partner for Knight, and if Daye and Gordon start to thrive, but as far as I'm concerned, the key is Knight, Monroe and the 2012 pick, and additions to that core from this roster would be gravy.

But, I think it potentially gets better than that. We're so young as a team that even if that happens, we'll still likely be a 2013 lotto team. So, to our core, we'll add a potentially really fine player in the 2013 draft. We could be a team like Okl City that stocks itself with a lot of outstanding young talent.

That's a lot of "ifs" - but is there another viable way to become a championship capable squad?

It goes back to roles too. At some point this season, Knight has to be the starter at PG with Stuckey at SG. Gordon's long-term role...IF he is going to be here is a 6th man off the bench. I think those 3 could all prosper in those roles. Knight definately has to develop some PG skills, but those should come.

SF and PF are huge question marks. Part of me wants to see Macklin play more. Move Jerebko to SF.

The great thing is we have a near all-star center. That, along with PG are usually the hardest spots to find quality talent at...and I think we have both. SF's...it's not unheard of to find one that is an all-star late in the 1st round or early in the 2nd round.

I'd like to see Gores buy a 1st Round pick at draft time too...like some other teams do sometimes.

mn3 · 01-13-2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel Kiper Jr

It goes back to roles too. At some point this season, Knight has to be the starter at PG with Stuckey at SG. Gordon's long-term role...IF he is going to be here is a 6th man off the bench. I think those 3 could all prosper in those roles. Knight definately has to develop some PG skills, but those should come.

SF and PF are huge question marks. Part of me wants to see Macklin play more. Move Jerebko to SF.

The great thing is we have a near all-star center. That, along with PG are usually the hardest spots to find quality talent at...and I think we have both. SF's...it's not unheard of to find one that is an all-star late in the 1st round or early in the 2nd round.

I'd like to see Gores buy a 1st Round pick at draft time too...like some other teams do sometimes.

I do think Gordon could and should prosper as a sixth man. But I believe that it would be better to trade him - some team needing a big scorer off the bench for the playoffs might well trade one of those for-sale 1st rounders. And that would open up a spot for Daye - who really is a SG, IMO. Daye in the lineup getting regular PT at one main position would give the Pistons a chance to develop a really great offensive talent. Plus, he would add a lot of rebounding support from that position - since he has always shown a willingness to battle for rebounds. And, he's a better defender right now than Gordon ever was. Overall, it would be great to get his size and length into our backcourt, given we are such a size-challenged team. If Daye doesn't make it after getting that big an opportunity, then so be it. We'll just move on. But if he does make it here, suddenly our core group looks a lot better and deeper for the future.

If we trade Gordon, that would allow us to amnesty CV next year. I think CV might be finished in Detroit. I'd be shocked if, when he comes back able to play, that he'll suddenly prove to be a great fit here. He's too lousy defensively for us to want to pair him with Monroe.

FadedMario · 01-13-2012, 01:37 PM

Last night is the type of loss I can live with - They played really hard - guarding the perimeter really killed us last night. The Bucks killed us with 3's.

Whiteman · 01-13-2012, 01:48 PM

Is there any links to Greg Monroe's highlights from last night ?

mn3 · 01-13-2012, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiteman

Is there any links to Greg Monroe's highlights from last night ?

That would be a pretty long video - he had a lot of sweet plays.

Whiteman · 01-13-2012, 02:16 PM

MN3 if anyone can find it it would be you!

mn3 · 01-13-2012, 02:19 PM

Not I. I post links to articles, but am not too much of a youtube guy.

01-12-2012, 08:27 PM	#1
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Pistons at Bucks: Delfino or Gordon? Knight's been hot so far.

01-12-2012, 10:27 PM	#28
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	One aspect of Monroe's game - with the ball around the basket is starting to remind me of a young Kevin McHale. A poor man's version. I cannot imagine Monroe will ever be that good. But tonight he's dominating one of the better D centers around in Bogut. Last edited by mn3; 01-12-2012 at 10:31 PM.

01-12-2012, 10:39 PM	#32
FadedMario Water Boy Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Millennium Falcon Posts: 420 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Holy shit - Monroe put up 1996 Shaq numbers! Last edited by FadedMario; 01-12-2012 at 10:47 PM.

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01-12-2012, 08:29 PM	#2
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Watching Jonas get torn apart by Jon leuer is embarrassing. His defense is reaching Villanueva levels. At some point, frank needs to reexamine why were starting a guy that can't play offense or defense...

01-12-2012, 08:31 PM	#3
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Leur has been very good this year. Not that that makes Jonas sucking balls any better. Stuckey getting in the game now.

01-12-2012, 08:33 PM	#4
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Brandon Knight is growing up... Much more confident attacking the rim.

01-12-2012, 08:35 PM	#5
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Glad Stuckey is back. He's not great most of the time, but he is better on D than our other guards and he brings a different dimension to our attack.

01-12-2012, 08:42 PM	#6
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I really missed Rodney's defense and hustle.

01-12-2012, 09:07 PM	#7
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Let Milwaukee get away from us there at the end of the 2nd quarter. We were hanging pretty tough before that.

01-12-2012, 09:10 PM	#8
FadedMario Water Boy Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Millennium Falcon Posts: 420 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Knight's looking good - finally getting to the free throw line a little bit. Monroe is also playing a nice game. Win or lose - would be nice to see Knight score 20 (or more) tonight and Monroe have a 20 and 10 game.

01-12-2012, 09:38 PM	#9
whoDean Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,955 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Monroe is cleaning up Prince's misses quite well

01-12-2012, 09:42 PM	#10
whoDean Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,955 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Pistons D in the paint is nonexistent

01-12-2012, 10:05 PM	#13
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Monroe and Knight doing damage tonight. Knight has 20 points on 9 shots.

01-12-2012, 10:10 PM	#14
Dave Bing Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,784 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	with just 1 assist.

01-12-2012, 10:11 PM	#15
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	But it was a pretty one. He's clearly got work to do, but he just has clearly has been good for a rook.

01-12-2012, 10:11 PM	#16
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	That's not what I want to see but at least he's contributing something.

01-12-2012, 10:12 PM	#17
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Wish I had a link that worked. That first row thing crapped out.

01-12-2012, 10:13 PM	#18
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	The biggest thing he has to work on are the turnovers. Not just cutting them down, but cutting the kinds of them down. It's one thing to get called for a charge, but it's much, much worse to get picked at the top of the key.

01-12-2012, 10:14 PM	#19
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Big numbers for Big Greg tonight. He's as encouraging as the rest are discouraging.

01-12-2012, 10:15 PM	#20
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	No kidding getting picked there is like an automatic two points the other way.

01-12-2012, 10:16 PM	#22
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Hey our point guard just doubled his assist total on one play and our center broke 30.

01-12-2012, 10:17 PM	#23
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I'd take Carlos Delfino back in a second if Milwaukee would swap him for Ben Gordon. And that's not to say that Delfino is great.

01-12-2012, 10:19 PM	#24
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	We're making a run and then... Beng.

01-12-2012, 10:25 PM	#25
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	Since I'm not an expert in the game of BB, I continue to be baffled as to why Tay has the reputation of being a high IQ player. He and Ben Gordon have completely F'd up down the stretch. WTF was he doing on the play with about 35 seconds left when he decided to be the point guard, keep the ball out of Knight's hands and throw up that steaming pile of poop air-ball from the corner?

01-12-2012, 10:26 PM	#26
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Would've liked to get the win here but so it goes. Better games for some of the fellas.

01-12-2012, 10:30 PM	#29
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	As bad a team as we are, I wonder if Monroe has a legitimate chance to be on the all-star team. With Horford out for a few months, his odds have improved.

01-12-2012, 10:37 PM	#31
DYNOMITE Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,804 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Offensively, Monroe plays like Duncan.

01-12-2012, 10:51 PM	#34
rpmfla Water Boy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 384 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Ben Gordon should not dribble or pass. They should just run plays to set him up to shoot, which he is very good at. He is horrible when he tries to be a creator or distributor. Monroe was so confident tonight it was fun to watch. He had an amazing array of moves and it looks like the game has slowed down for him. Max is rarely ready for the pass under the hoop. It is like he sees the PG driving and just starts thinking about trying to rebound/put back. Perhaps playing with Stuckey convinced him that PGs never pass when they drive to the hoop. I still like Jonas even though he is going through a rough time. He is still only in his second season so he can get better. You know he give a ton of effort. It was more fun to watch tonight except for the end of the 1st half. The Pistons had the ball and a chance to cut the lead to one and then all hell broke loose. The Bucks are tough when they shoot so well from the 3, but for a lot of game we actually looked as good if not better. I haven't been able to say that much this season! No moral victories but I'd say this was a small step forward.

01-12-2012, 11:22 PM	#36
detroitsportsfan Bench Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,511 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	This team is poop. Seriously. Poop. Are they really that bad??? Some changes have to be made. Coach has to start making changes in the rotation at least. Maybe start Big Ben (sadly) again or something.

01-13-2012, 10:06 AM	#38
whoDean Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,955 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Nothing needs to be done, the team is playing hard and losing, the theme for this season.

01-13-2012, 10:22 AM	#39
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Things need to be done - just not by Frank. He's playing the young guys and letting them take their lumps. The rest is on Joe to start putting together some more talent. ie another frontcourt player.

01-13-2012, 10:48 AM	#40
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Sadly, if adding or playing more veterans is going to result in a few more meaningless wins, we may be better off losing playing the young players. The draft pick is our hope for the future.

01-13-2012, 11:19 AM	#42
rpmfla Water Boy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 384 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Right, no one likes to watch night after night of losing. However, if they were a bunch of young guys giving their all and gradually progressing, we'd feel better. As it is, it seems to me that the young guys that play are the best players on the team and the old guys are not holding up their end. Ben Gordon could be an awesome asset if he was used in such a way to get him open looks (other than that stupid Rip Hamilton run around like crazy nonsense!). He is a great shooter who too often hesitates to shoot. Tay is a slightly less interested version of Tay. The offense always bogged down with him and it still does, and he no longer is a very effective defender. Ben Wallace is really the only old guy who still has a mainly positive effect on the game, which is pretty amazing. Losing sucks, and losing while playing horrible basketball sucks worse. Monroe is better than I thought he'd be, which makes me think basketball IQ can go a long way to overcome a lack of supreme athleticism. Daye has been a disappointment obviously, but I do think he has the raw talent to be a great player. He needs to really dedicate himself to improving his body and working much harder on the defensive end of the court. Will Bynum does some amazing things on the court...amazingly good and amazingly bad. He would be a star in D-League. Macklin looks like a huge puppy out there on the court, but I think if he gets more PT and learns the game and calms down he could be a good PF in the league. I'm not a fan of Max so I'd like to see Vernon get a few of Max's minutes.