[mn3]

The ONLY good thing about tonight's game was that Knight got to play 36 minutes of it. He's the first rookie we've had in years who the coach has allowed to play through his mistakes.

He'll be much improved next season because he got this experience.

Other than that, this is one of those games which makes me doubt whether I'd want to watch anymore this season. Someone please wake me when this nightmare's over.

[Kstat]

I know we have a rookie point guard, but come one, Frank. let this team breathe a little. We struggle to score because there's zero creativity. It's like a college team where everything is micro-managed. I think Knight had more freedom at Kentucky than he does here.

Stuckey is the one guy that doesn't stand around and wait for someone else to do something. He's actually constantly attacking. Everyone else stands around the perimeter and swings the ball like we're imitating Hoosiers.

[Mel Kiper Jr]

I skip right to the 2nd page of threads and read 2 posts and instantly know what happened. :-(

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by mn3

Someone please wake me when this nightmare's over.

You think that's night mare?

Well, you have no idea what the world outside of matrix is.

[ghandi]

I guess monroe was due to have an off night, at least scoring wise anyway...he still lead the team in boards and assists.

[papalawrence]

Originally Posted by Mel Kiper Jr

I skip right to the 2nd page of threads and read 2 posts and instantly know what happened. :-(

Lol.......me too.

[Orwellian O.]

Knight needs to be shut down/limited over the next couple of weeks. He needs to do a bit of watching and learning.

[Orwellian O.]

Originally Posted by ghandi

I guess monroe was due to have an off night, at least scoring wise anyway...he still lead the team in boards and assists.

His defense was terrible. He played softer than Charmin. Of course, getting paired with JJ didn't help.

[Billl]

Big Ben is a horrible offensive paring with Monroe. The paint was about as crowded as you are going to ever see. At least JJ keeps a defense honest with his movement and shooting.

This game should be a warning for forumites that just want an athletic shotblocker to play with Monroe. If teams are going to double monroe, he's going to need a running mate that will make them pay. That might be offensive rebounding or slashing or jump shooting, but it has to be something. 4 on 5 basketball is ugly when you are perimeter oriented. It is completely unworkable if you are trying to run offense through the post.

[hack]

Good point.

[mn3]

Originally Posted by Billl

Big Ben is a horrible offensive paring with Monroe. The paint was about as crowded as you are going to ever see. At least JJ keeps a defense honest with his movement and shooting.

This game should be a warning for forumites that just want an athletic shotblocker to play with Monroe. If teams are going to double monroe, he's going to need a running mate that will make them pay. That might be offensive rebounding or slashing or jump shooting, but it has to be something. 4 on 5 basketball is ugly when you are perimeter oriented. It is completely unworkable if you are trying to run offense through the post.

Th0se are very good points. The Pistons may never be able to afford having a defense-only player at any position on the court for long periods with Monroe. If D's collapse into the paint, teams will be able to force the ball out of Monroe's hands. We'd better surround him with 4 scoring threats.

[Kstat]

If we need to surround Monroe with 4 scoring threats (which JJ isn't either %80 of the time), then Monroe isn't early as good as we thought.

His main problem last night wasn't Ben, it was Dalembert. There was nobody near him on that point blank layup that he missed by 3 feet. Mentally, he was worrying about the 7'2" shot blocker rather than just playing his game.

If Monroe could hit a perimeter shot (which he had been doing all season), he would not have had an issue at all, seeing as how Dalembert never stayed more than 1 foot outside the paint all game long. Not one time he he follow Monroe out there.

I don't care who's playing next to Monroe offensively. He's not going to win in the paint against a taller, more athletic shot blocker that's standing in front of the rim waiting for him.

He needs to start taking those open 12-footers and forcing bigger defenders to come out and guard him, so he can take them off the dribble. That's how Zach Randolph and Kevin love dealt with teams guarding them with taller, more athletic players. That's the next step in his evolution if he wants to become a dominant player.

[RodimusPrime]

Originally Posted by Billl

Big Ben is a horrible offensive paring with Monroe. The paint was about as crowded as you are going to ever see. At least JJ keeps a defense honest with his movement and shooting.

This game should be a warning for forumites that just want an athletic shotblocker to play with Monroe. If teams are going to double monroe, he's going to need a running mate that will make them pay. That might be offensive rebounding or slashing or jump shooting, but it has to be something. 4 on 5 basketball is ugly when you are perimeter oriented. It is completely unworkable if you are trying to run offense through the post.

Completely disagree. Yes, Ben at this stage in his career is the worst option next to Monroe but that does not apply to all athletic shot blockers. Ben was a truly atrocious offensive player when he had all of his athleticism. When Ben could jump out of the gym you cringed if he wasn't wide open for a dunk and got the ball and now he is shadow of that athlete. Put an athletic shot blocker next to Monroe that is a threat to throw it down if he gets the ball around the rim and it will help Monroe.

[Billl]

Yeah, but not just any athletic shotblocker can turn into an offensive rebounding machine. When Ben was in his prime, we consistently snagged 4 offensive rebounds per game. Teams had to account for him offensively or else we could just play offense and offensive rebound until we finally made a shot.

Whoever we pair with monroe has to be able to make teams pay if they leave him. Ben could do that in his prime. Not just any old athlete does that though.

[Kstat]

better than Jonas, who stands out at the arc unguarded.

[Billl]

Jonas is shooting 33% from 3. He also is very active and will dive to the hoop for easy buckets if defenses don't keep a body on him. He's not a great player, but he can be disruptive if teams don't play him honest. He moves very well without the ball.

[Kstat]

His very limited offensive improvement is far outweighed by the fact he gets steamrolled in the post.

Unless Monroe morphs into Dwight Howard, Jonas has no business starting next to him.

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by Kstat

His very limited offensive improvement is far outweighed by the fact he gets steamrolled in the post.

Unless Monroe morphs into Dwight Howard, Jonas has no business starting next to him.

You guys talk a bit at cross purposes.

Billl's point is about what kind of PF or C should play next to Monroe (it should be someone who has some O skills because our O frequently goes through Monroe and you do noty want to allow our adversaries to double team him at will w/o paying price for it).

Your point is that it should be someone with big enough body and enough strength to play a PF/C position (it is not JJ, I agree).

[Billl]

Well, I'm sure you'll go on arguing no matter what, but nobody claimed jonas was a great compliment to Monroe. My point was that if you have a low post center, letting the opposing PF collapse down without penalty is going to run your offense right into the ground. You need to either force teams to play guys straight up or double down with a small. If you allow a big to big double, it is pretty much game over. The rotation distance is just so short that any NBA defense is just going to eat you alive.

[Kstat]

Nobody was collapsing on Monroe last night. There was some switching, but the idea that he shot poorly because he was going against traps and double teams is simply not true.

Monroe does not see many double teams because word is out about his passing ability.

Monroe had multiple 1 on 1 opportunities with dalembert last night. Dalembert played 3 feet off of him and just waited for Monroe to come to him.

If Monroe could hit a mid range jumper last night, he would have scored his average easily. Last night is on him, and will be repeated more often until he becomes a more willing perimeter shooter.

[hack]

I think the point about Jonas is good. He's a bench forward for now, unless we see more recovery from him a year on from the achilles.

[DYNOMITE]

If Jonas gets healthy, he is a 20 point a night scorer. We all agree on that.

[Kstat]

He'll be much better next season when he gets more of his old lift back. Won't help him in the post, but we'll see more of the old Swedish eagle that we saw in 2010.

[DYNOMITE]

Just think how good he will be the season after that. I may have to adjust my expectations in an upward direction.

[Kstat]

To emphasize my point, take a look at this film and tell me if this is anywhere near the same Jonas you've seen so far this year.

How many dunks does he have this year? One? Two?

He's changed from a high flying finisher to a set-shot artist. He's not nearly as effective offensively as he used to be.

[DYNOMITE]

Time will tell for sure. I just can't help my enthusiasm.

[Orwellian O.]

Although the game wasn't that great, the stadium was nice.

Glad I went for the suit upgrade or I would have been totally pissed about overpriced seats in an empty stadium with no swag to be had.

Lots of Red Wings fans there...so nobody chided me too much about the Red Wings jersey and Lions hat.

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by DYNOMITE

If Jonas gets healthy, he is a 20 point a night scorer. We all agree on that.

He can give it sometimes but, it seems to me, we can really count on something like 12-15 and bunch of rebounds and great energy.

More generally, he tends to do poorly against strong PFs because he really is not a PF. So, big line ups tend to dominate us, really bit shit out of us to the level of intimidation. As good as Monroe is, there got to be another legit big playing next to him.

Also, I agree with Billl. If our O is to be Monroe oriented, which I think is a great idea (by the way, 6 assists last night), then this other big (in addition to being excellent defender) must contribute on O. Otherwise, it will be just too easy to defend against us. That's just common sense.

But also, he really played shitty on O. It felt like his mind was not there, or at least he was lost. Well, sometimes you just have a bad night. But, also, Dalambert is one huge dude, that's a tough match up for anyone. And he played great D on Greg.

By the way, on another issue, I like the way Stuckey plays. Very much under control, with strong contributions on both ends. One of few brighter spots.

[Kstat]

If Monroe can get some confidence in his mid-range shot, then who plays next to him offensively is a non-issue. His court vision is so good that sending another big over to help is only going to break down the defense.

Beside, Monroe is not big or athletic enough to be strictly a low-post center. The other unathletic all-star bigs all have perimeter games to open up the floor for them. Monroe either does that, or he doesn't, but there simply should not be much stressing over who is next to him offensively. We drafted him to be an offensive hub. WHat we need next to him is a shot blocker.

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by Kstat

To emphasize my point, take a look at this film and tell me if this is anywhere near the same Jonas you've seen so far this year.

How many dunks does he have this year? One? Two?

He's changed from a high flying finisher to a set-shot artist. He's not nearly as effective offensively as he used to be.

That's an awesome mix! Thanks for posting!

At that time, he was also able to defend four (occasionally) positions, certainly on many switches he would defend well anyone from points through PFs.

Also, the mix reminded me why I always thought he is more natural as a SF. With his energy, he would be a perfect 25-30 minutes guy off the bench and sometimes finishing, too, if he has it going on a given night.

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by Kstat

If Monroe can get some confidence in his mid-range shot, then who plays next to him offensively is a non-issue. His court vision is so good that sending another big over to help is only going to break down the defense.

Beside, Monroe is not big or athletic enough to be strictly a low-post center. The other unathletic all-star bigs all have perimeter games to open up the floor for them. Monroe either does that, or he doesn't, but there simply should not be much stressing over who is next to him offensively. We drafted him to be an offensive hub. WHat we need next to him is a shot blocker.

all good points

I also think Billl's are all good points, too.
Those are compatible points and both are important.

We may put more emphasis on one end or another but



the best sunsets
when there are some clouds

[Kstat]

Originally Posted by Stefan S

That's an awesome mix! Thanks for posting!

At that time, he was also able to defend four (occasionally) positions, certainly on many switches he would defend well anyone from points through PFs.

Also, the mix reminded me why I always thought he is more natural as a SF. With his energy, he would be a perfect 25-30 minutes guy off the bench and sometimes finishing, too, if he has it going on a given night.

There was a point early in his rookie year, where he started at SF for an injured Tasyhaun, and he averaged 13 and 7, and shot around %50 over a 14-game stretch. Then Tayshaun came back, Kuester moved Jonas to the 4, and his production fell back off.

More importantly, he averaged over three offensive rebounds per game over that span. He had a physical advantage on a lot of the SFs he played against, and even though he couldn't shoot, he was getting a ton of put-backs.

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by Kstat

There was a point early in his rookie year, where he started at SF for an injured Tasyhaun, and he averaged 13 and 7, and shot around %50 over a 14-game stretch. Then Tayshaun came back, Kuester moved Jonas to the 4, and his production fell back off.

More importantly, he averaged over three offensive rebounds per game over that span. He had a physical advantage on a lot of the SFs he played against, and even though he couldn't shoot, he was getting a ton of put-backs.

I would not be able to recall the exact stats

(f@!k, moderators, why don't we have JJ's smily)
(and we still have Q and ohmygosh even

this guy. What says you, Jeff!)

but I vaguely recall his contributions.
It looks like now he added a better j to his arsenal
but lost lots of quickness. Part of it must be the injury.

[Kstat]

The general rule with basketball players and Achilles tears is it takes 2 years to fully recover. One year to get back on the floor, and two years to re-gain the spring/lift you originally had.

I won't be worried unless he comes back next year and still can't fly around like he used to.

[mn3]

Originally Posted by Kstat

If Monroe can get some confidence in his mid-range shot, then who plays next to him offensively is a non-issue. His court vision is so good that sending another big over to help is only going to break down the defense.

Beside, Monroe is not big or athletic enough to be strictly a low-post center. The other unathletic all-star bigs all have perimeter games to open up the floor for them. Monroe either does that, or he doesn't, but there simply should not be much stressing over who is next to him offensively. We drafted him to be an offensive hub. WHat we need next to him is a shot blocker.

He had a bad game. But I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it. Monroe has been great against some strong defensive centers (Bogut, Bierdens). Players have off games.

And the Rockets did collapse people into the lane - resulting in at least a couple strips of Monroe when he put it on the floor to drive to the basket.

I expect Monroe will learn from that game.

[Kstat]

you had guards digging in when he put his head down, which happens to every big man.

[Billl]

So, you are arguing that nobody guarded Ben and they left JJ alone on the perimeter, but that big wasn't sagging in on Monroe? Where did he go? To get some popcorn?

They had 2 bigs in the paint most of the night. Sure, it would be great if Monroe was a knock down jump shooter, but he isn't. Frankly, if he was, he'd be Tim Duncan. As is though, he's not going to score a ton vs a good defensive team that gets to leave 2 bigs in the paint.

[Kstat]

Originally Posted by Billl

Sure, it would be great if Monroe was a knock down jump shooter, but he isn't. Frankly, if he was, he'd be Tim Duncan. As is though, he's not going to score a ton vs a good defensive team that gets to leave 2 bigs in the paint.

...or Kevin Love, or Zach Randolph, or Bill Laimbeer, or just about any other all-star big that had limited athleticism.

And that's fine. He can be that, and still be a good return for where we drafted him. he just won't be an all-star.

Developing a consistent mid-range shot does not mean he has to be Tim Duncan. It's not an impossible task.

I do take exception to the idea we need to put a stretch-four around him. He isn't a shot blocker, which he would need to be to compensate, since the vast majority of those types of players are defensive liabilities.