Portland Vs Detroit: The Inevitable Collapse Comes Early or Late? - Page 4

Kstat · 01-23-2012, 01:40 AM

mystery ailments and precautionary reasons are going to force a lot of guys to miss games this year.

I fully expect Villanueva and Bynum to sit out the season, unless they need to be showcased for a game or two.

Inbetweengame · 01-23-2012, 06:47 AM

I had been thinking that as well given the number of games already missed. It really makes me wonder how Joe Dumars could've gotten it so wrong with Charlie Villanueva. His weaknesses which are glaring now were pretty damn obvious even when he was in Milwaukee so why did we sign the guy?

Ben Gordon I get a little bit more, even while I thought it was a terrible mood, I could see a track record of being a useful NBA scorer and a solid professional. Villanueva seems like a Tim Thomas that didn't get away (less talented but also less of a jackass). After he's washed out of the league we need to bring him back to sweep out the gym and say to the young fellas, "Don't be like me kid."

Dave Bing · 01-23-2012, 08:43 AM

There was all this talk last year about how much trade value he had. I just find that very hard to believe. Charlie is my great disappointment. I wagered against history in thinking that he would come here, get in the system, and be useful on both sides. I was thinking that he was the right kind of signing, a young guy on the cusp of making a leap.

Well, you win some and lose some. He sucks.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-23-2012, 08:52 AM

For his career, CV is a 12.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg game guy in 25 minutes per game.

Offensively, I can atleast see what Dumars saw. He thought he was getting a guy that continue to improve and in more minutes maybe average 18 ppg.

But, what Dumars didn't take into account was that he plays no defense and is really soft. That doesn't fit into what we want to do here. Instead, we play Maxiell who is pretty bad most games and JJ who hustles but is undersized.

Kstat · 01-23-2012, 10:22 AM

The weaknesses of Jon Barry, Chucky Atkins, Ben Wallace and Corliss Williamso were pretty glaring, too.

If you don't take a chance on guys, you'll never succeed.

mn3 · 01-23-2012, 10:30 AM

When CV gets healthy - I suppose I should say if CV gets healthy - the Pistons will give him the chance to play a lot of minutes. His offensive skill set is impressive, and he's the type of stretch 4 who Monroe will make great use of. In a starting lineup with Stuckey and Prince - CV would give us 3 pt range that other teams have to respect. The offense could, in time - it'll take quite a while for this to gel - become quite good.

D is a totally other and opposite thing. CV playing will only make our D problems worse. He's a mess at that end of the court.

But, if he can reprove himself as an offensively strong player, he could resurrect his trade value. Stretch 4's in this league are guys who could come off the bench and really help strong teams. His contract isn't that horrible and doesn't have many years left. It's possible that a team would give a late first rounder for him. (I've been reading that this year's draft, while strong in the first 10-15 picks or so, doesn't have the depth of the 2011 draft).

Dave Bing · 01-23-2012, 10:31 AM

No one is saying don't take a chance. On the contrary, I was saying that at the time, Charlie seemed the right kind of player to take a chance on. I know that Hack certainly advocates the roll-the-dice theory with big men. Would have liked a move on a player like Gortat who had good numbers in short minutes, getting ready for more primetime action. No one says that you have to wait for a sure thing. You will never find one at reasonable cost. Unless you are paying superstar money, you are essentially rolling the dice.

mn3 · 01-23-2012, 10:33 AM

... and CV was coming off a good season.

Dave Bing · 01-23-2012, 10:44 AM

I don't know about this draft not having depth. You could get a guy like Mason Plumlee down in the late twenties. We have a pretty impressive top 10-15 and that is before the foreigners start showing up in mocks.

Billl · 01-23-2012, 11:35 AM

CV is an insanely skilled bigman. He can just flat out light it up when he is rolling.

He's obviously not a good fit on a rebuilding team, but he could be a bench gunner for many others. There just aren't that many bigs in the world that can just go on scoring rolls like he can. He doesn't do enough else positive that you can count on him as a rotation staple, but he he can knock down shots in bunches.

Stefan S · 01-23-2012, 11:49 AM

So, maybe CV is a trading material.

By the way, when it happened, I liked his signing, I thought he would help us.

mn3 · 01-23-2012, 11:57 AM

I've read (Chad Ford) that this is considered a poor year for international draftees.

The key for the Pistons is that this is an excellent year for PF's. Unless we win quite a few more games than is reasonable predictable, we'll be in a prime position to get one of them, or a Center like Drummond.

Billl · 01-23-2012, 11:59 AM

"So, maybe CV is a trading material."

His current contract cancels out any value he might have. Bench gunners aren't worth $8 million/yr.

Kstat · 01-23-2012, 12:12 PM

The one international guy to keep an eye on is Lucas Noguiera. He's as raw a 19 year old big man as you will ever see, but he's very gifted athletically and he's a legit 7 feet and growing.

He's a 2nd round prospect right now, but a strong finish overseas could Biyombo his way into the late lottery.

mn3 · 01-23-2012, 12:22 PM

I wouldn't hate finiding a way to draft a super defending big man AFTER our lottery pick, but I'm really hoping we get an all-around star big man - someone who can do something with Monroe's great passes. It's really discouraging to watch Monroe make great passes to Ben Wallace who almost never finishes the play by converting little bunnies. Ben treats getting the ball in a position that would have any half-way competant offensive player drool, like it was a red-hot piece of coal. Jason Maxiell is better at converting, but he's way below average at that.

Kstat · 01-23-2012, 12:25 PM

It's more discouraging that Monroe can't consistently make a wide open 12 footer.

One big man in the paint passing to another one inside the paint is not a winning offensive formula, unless it's a lob pass.

If the Pistons draft a true low post beast like Sullinger, it's going to move Monroe away from the basket consistently, and he'll have to start making those shots.

fredsue · 01-23-2012, 02:51 PM

I have confident that IF something like that was to happen that Monroe would work on it. He also has a pretty srtong move to the basket from the high post....

mn3 · 01-23-2012, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kstat

It's more discouraging that Monroe can't consistently make a wide open 12 footer.

One big man in the paint passing to another one inside the paint is not a winning offensive formula, unless it's a lob pass.

If the Pistons draft a true low post beast like Sullinger, it's going to move Monroe away from the basket consistently, and he'll have to start making those shots.

Monroe's improved his mid-range game a lot in one offseason. There's absolutely no evidence suggesting he won't continue to improve that part of his game over the next few seasons. He won't hit his prime as a BB player for at least 5 years, when he'll be all of 26 years old.

ghandi · 01-23-2012, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billl

"So, maybe CV is a trading material."

His current contract cancels out any value he might have. Bench gunners aren't worth $8 million/yr.

IT would be interesting to ask another team's GM what he thinks of alot of the Pistons players and what he would give up for each one.....I'm under the impression that league wide alot of our players dont have much value.

Billl · 01-23-2012, 03:54 PM

Well, some of our players have a ton of value, but they are pretty much off limits. Not surprisingly, the guys we want to dump aren't going to fetch much.

Inbetweengame · 01-23-2012, 07:45 PM

My thought back when we signed Gordon and Villanueva was, "Joe's trying to make us the Orlando Magic but we ain't got Dwight Howard."

I really think he'd been looking at what stretch fours had been doing around the league and saw that Villanueva had that kind of skill set and took a shot. I wish he factored in Charlie's noted lack of confidence

Calhoun says Villanueva needs confidence boost - GreenwichTime

and lack of athletic ability and offered him 6 million per year instead of 8 million. I also think that the value of stretch fours was overrated at the time. So all of this went into a riskier than normal gamble.

Marcin Gortat on the other hand would've been a terrific gamble but now he's shining with the Suns. This guy is the second round big fella I'd like us to take a gamble on this year, especially if we get the pick from Houston.

Festus Ezeli | NBADraft.net

Dave Bing · 01-23-2012, 08:17 PM

Do we actually have to play this game against Oklahoma? This is going to be ugly.

mn3 · 01-23-2012, 08:26 PM

Yes it is.

hack · 01-24-2012, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Bing

No one is saying don't take a chance. On the contrary, I was saying that at the time, Charlie seemed the right kind of player to take a chance on. I know that Hack certainly advocates the roll-the-dice theory with big men. Would have liked a move on a player like Gortat who had good numbers in short minutes, getting ready for more primetime action. No one says that you have to wait for a sure thing. You will never find one at reasonable cost. Unless you are paying superstar money, you are essentially rolling the dice.

Not on proven chumps. CV was one and it was a shit signing. Certainly a Gortat, yes. But even I'm surprised at how bad CV is. Logic would dictate that we could dump him on a team that could hide him defensively, but obviously it's not happening. That said, re the tanking question, if we were really tanking CV would be getting regular minutes.

Billl · 01-24-2012, 09:29 AM

Of note - Gortat was restricted. Dallas signed him to an offer sheet and the Magic matched. The same thing would have happened if we had somehow convinced him to sign with us instead.

That is the flaw with the "take a chance on a young big" theory. Most of those young bigs are restricted. If they have shown any promise at all, their teams probably won't let them go unless you massively overpay for them. That raises the stakes in that gamble quite a bit. Take gortat. The Magic matched an offer that is paying him $7 mil this season. What would we have had to bid to keep that from happening? $10 million? It is pretty tough to bet a long term - all-start level contract on a guy making a big leap.

hack · 01-24-2012, 09:59 AM

Coulda dangled a nice offer to Orlando at the time, when they were pretty close to contending and perhaps Rip and/or Tay plus Max (who was still young and had potential and was Dwight Howard kryptonite somewhat) accepting a cap slug would have gotten him here. I wouldn't have minded taking on a cap slug maybe that would expire sooner than our own homegrown cap slugs.

But that was during the KD/sale/trade moratorium situation. I just hope that Joe can get in on those in the future.

mn3 · 01-24-2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

But that was during the KD/sale/trade moratorium situation. I just hope that Joe can get in on those in the future.

Anything that impedes our unofficial, unintentional tanking this year should wait til next season. Play the youngsters. Take our lumps. Add nobody who can help, unless he's a young very talented core player.

Billl · 01-24-2012, 10:36 AM

As we have seen, rip+tay packages didn't exactly sell like hotcakes. It is far from a given that the Magic would have jumped on that and I am certainly glad we didn't start offering draft picks as sweeteners in any of those type deals.

hack · 01-24-2012, 11:20 AM

We've seen that during the time those two could have been traded, we were exceptionally limited in what we could take back. The past is the past though, and if another Gortat were available one hopes Joe could get something done.

Dave Bing · 01-24-2012, 11:58 AM

Very philosophical of you, Hack.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-24-2012, 12:13 PM

The best trade that we had offerred was something like Rip, Prince, Stuckey to Boston for Rondo and Allen (who was an expiring contract at the time I believe.)

Allen is still playing at a decent level. Rondo obviously is good. In hindsight, maybe that was a good trade to do.

At the time, it seemed like a lot ot give up.

hack · 01-24-2012, 12:13 PM

Trying to stick with this new paradigm.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-24-2012, 12:19 PM

Will there ever be another Gortat available? I'd like to hear your philosophical musings...

whoDean · 01-24-2012, 12:57 PM

There could be one on the same team...Robin Lopez (but he will be restricted like Gortat was)

01-23-2012, 12:12 PM	#164
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	The one international guy to keep an eye on is Lucas Noguiera. He's as raw a 19 year old big man as you will ever see, but he's very gifted athletically and he's a legit 7 feet and growing. He's a 2nd round prospect right now, but a strong finish overseas could Biyombo his way into the late lottery. Last edited by Kstat; 01-23-2012 at 12:20 PM.

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01-23-2012, 01:40 AM	#151
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	mystery ailments and precautionary reasons are going to force a lot of guys to miss games this year. I fully expect Villanueva and Bynum to sit out the season, unless they need to be showcased for a game or two.

01-23-2012, 06:47 AM	#152
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I had been thinking that as well given the number of games already missed. It really makes me wonder how Joe Dumars could've gotten it so wrong with Charlie Villanueva. His weaknesses which are glaring now were pretty damn obvious even when he was in Milwaukee so why did we sign the guy? Ben Gordon I get a little bit more, even while I thought it was a terrible mood, I could see a track record of being a useful NBA scorer and a solid professional. Villanueva seems like a Tim Thomas that didn't get away (less talented but also less of a jackass). After he's washed out of the league we need to bring him back to sweep out the gym and say to the young fellas, "Don't be like me kid."

01-23-2012, 08:43 AM	#153
Dave Bing Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,784 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	There was all this talk last year about how much trade value he had. I just find that very hard to believe. Charlie is my great disappointment. I wagered against history in thinking that he would come here, get in the system, and be useful on both sides. I was thinking that he was the right kind of signing, a young guy on the cusp of making a leap. Well, you win some and lose some. He sucks.

01-23-2012, 08:52 AM	#154
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	For his career, CV is a 12.6 ppg, 5.6 rpg game guy in 25 minutes per game. Offensively, I can atleast see what Dumars saw. He thought he was getting a guy that continue to improve and in more minutes maybe average 18 ppg. But, what Dumars didn't take into account was that he plays no defense and is really soft. That doesn't fit into what we want to do here. Instead, we play Maxiell who is pretty bad most games and JJ who hustles but is undersized.

01-23-2012, 10:22 AM	#155
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	The weaknesses of Jon Barry, Chucky Atkins, Ben Wallace and Corliss Williamso were pretty glaring, too. If you don't take a chance on guys, you'll never succeed.

01-23-2012, 10:30 AM	#156
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	When CV gets healthy - I suppose I should say if CV gets healthy - the Pistons will give him the chance to play a lot of minutes. His offensive skill set is impressive, and he's the type of stretch 4 who Monroe will make great use of. In a starting lineup with Stuckey and Prince - CV would give us 3 pt range that other teams have to respect. The offense could, in time - it'll take quite a while for this to gel - become quite good. D is a totally other and opposite thing. CV playing will only make our D problems worse. He's a mess at that end of the court. But, if he can reprove himself as an offensively strong player, he could resurrect his trade value. Stretch 4's in this league are guys who could come off the bench and really help strong teams. His contract isn't that horrible and doesn't have many years left. It's possible that a team would give a late first rounder for him. (I've been reading that this year's draft, while strong in the first 10-15 picks or so, doesn't have the depth of the 2011 draft).

01-23-2012, 10:31 AM	#157
Dave Bing Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,784 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	No one is saying don't take a chance. On the contrary, I was saying that at the time, Charlie seemed the right kind of player to take a chance on. I know that Hack certainly advocates the roll-the-dice theory with big men. Would have liked a move on a player like Gortat who had good numbers in short minutes, getting ready for more primetime action. No one says that you have to wait for a sure thing. You will never find one at reasonable cost. Unless you are paying superstar money, you are essentially rolling the dice.

01-23-2012, 10:33 AM	#158
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	... and CV was coming off a good season.

01-23-2012, 10:44 AM	#159
Dave Bing Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,784 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	I don't know about this draft not having depth. You could get a guy like Mason Plumlee down in the late twenties. We have a pretty impressive top 10-15 and that is before the foreigners start showing up in mocks.

01-23-2012, 11:35 AM	#160
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	CV is an insanely skilled bigman. He can just flat out light it up when he is rolling. He's obviously not a good fit on a rebuilding team, but he could be a bench gunner for many others. There just aren't that many bigs in the world that can just go on scoring rolls like he can. He doesn't do enough else positive that you can count on him as a rotation staple, but he he can knock down shots in bunches.

01-23-2012, 11:49 AM	#161
Stefan S Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: South Texas Posts: 8,259 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	So, maybe CV is a trading material. By the way, when it happened, I liked his signing, I thought he would help us.

01-23-2012, 11:57 AM	#162
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	I've read (Chad Ford) that this is considered a poor year for international draftees. The key for the Pistons is that this is an excellent year for PF's. Unless we win quite a few more games than is reasonable predictable, we'll be in a prime position to get one of them, or a Center like Drummond.

01-23-2012, 11:59 AM	#163
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	"So, maybe CV is a trading material." His current contract cancels out any value he might have. Bench gunners aren't worth $8 million/yr.

01-23-2012, 12:22 PM	#165
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	I wouldn't hate finiding a way to draft a super defending big man AFTER our lottery pick, but I'm really hoping we get an all-around star big man - someone who can do something with Monroe's great passes. It's really discouraging to watch Monroe make great passes to Ben Wallace who almost never finishes the play by converting little bunnies. Ben treats getting the ball in a position that would have any half-way competant offensive player drool, like it was a red-hot piece of coal. Jason Maxiell is better at converting, but he's way below average at that.

01-23-2012, 12:25 PM	#166
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	It's more discouraging that Monroe can't consistently make a wide open 12 footer. One big man in the paint passing to another one inside the paint is not a winning offensive formula, unless it's a lob pass. If the Pistons draft a true low post beast like Sullinger, it's going to move Monroe away from the basket consistently, and he'll have to start making those shots.

01-23-2012, 02:51 PM	#167
fredsue Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,489 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I have confident that IF something like that was to happen that Monroe would work on it. He also has a pretty srtong move to the basket from the high post....

01-23-2012, 03:54 PM	#170
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Well, some of our players have a ton of value, but they are pretty much off limits. Not surprisingly, the guys we want to dump aren't going to fetch much.

01-23-2012, 07:45 PM	#171
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	My thought back when we signed Gordon and Villanueva was, "Joe's trying to make us the Orlando Magic but we ain't got Dwight Howard." I really think he'd been looking at what stretch fours had been doing around the league and saw that Villanueva had that kind of skill set and took a shot. I wish he factored in Charlie's noted lack of confidence Calhoun says Villanueva needs confidence boost - GreenwichTime and lack of athletic ability and offered him 6 million per year instead of 8 million. I also think that the value of stretch fours was overrated at the time. So all of this went into a riskier than normal gamble. Marcin Gortat on the other hand would've been a terrific gamble but now he's shining with the Suns. This guy is the second round big fella I'd like us to take a gamble on this year, especially if we get the pick from Houston. Festus Ezeli \| NBADraft.net

01-23-2012, 08:17 PM	#172
Dave Bing Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,784 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Do we actually have to play this game against Oklahoma? This is going to be ugly.

01-23-2012, 08:26 PM	#173
mn3 Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 5,502 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	Yes it is.

01-24-2012, 09:29 AM	#175
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Of note - Gortat was restricted. Dallas signed him to an offer sheet and the Magic matched. The same thing would have happened if we had somehow convinced him to sign with us instead. That is the flaw with the "take a chance on a young big" theory. Most of those young bigs are restricted. If they have shown any promise at all, their teams probably won't let them go unless you massively overpay for them. That raises the stakes in that gamble quite a bit. Take gortat. The Magic matched an offer that is paying him $7 mil this season. What would we have had to bid to keep that from happening? $10 million? It is pretty tough to bet a long term - all-start level contract on a guy making a big leap.

01-24-2012, 09:59 AM	#176
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Coulda dangled a nice offer to Orlando at the time, when they were pretty close to contending and perhaps Rip and/or Tay plus Max (who was still young and had potential and was Dwight Howard kryptonite somewhat) accepting a cap slug would have gotten him here. I wouldn't have minded taking on a cap slug maybe that would expire sooner than our own homegrown cap slugs. But that was during the KD/sale/trade moratorium situation. I just hope that Joe can get in on those in the future.

01-24-2012, 10:36 AM	#178
Billl Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,382 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	As we have seen, rip+tay packages didn't exactly sell like hotcakes. It is far from a given that the Magic would have jumped on that and I am certainly glad we didn't start offering draft picks as sweeteners in any of those type deals.

01-24-2012, 11:20 AM	#179
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	We've seen that during the time those two could have been traded, we were exceptionally limited in what we could take back. The past is the past though, and if another Gortat were available one hopes Joe could get something done.

01-24-2012, 11:58 AM	#180
Dave Bing Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,784 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	Very philosophical of you, Hack.

01-24-2012, 12:13 PM	#181
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	The best trade that we had offerred was something like Rip, Prince, Stuckey to Boston for Rondo and Allen (who was an expiring contract at the time I believe.) Allen is still playing at a decent level. Rondo obviously is good. In hindsight, maybe that was a good trade to do. At the time, it seemed like a lot ot give up.

01-24-2012, 12:13 PM	#182
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Trying to stick with this new paradigm.

01-24-2012, 12:19 PM	#183
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Will there ever be another Gortat available? I'd like to hear your philosophical musings...

01-24-2012, 12:57 PM	#184
whoDean Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,955 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	There could be one on the same team...Robin Lopez (but he will be restricted like Gortat was)