Atlanta VS Detroit: Does Anyone Out There Care? - Page 3

Inbetweengame · 01-28-2012, 01:15 AM

Thank you Forsh for keeping it real, let's keep it really real.

Walter Sharpe over DeAndre Jordan and LR Mbah a Moute was a horrible, horrible mistake both of those guys are real NBA players and Sharpe never developed. So 2008 was a rough year. We could've had DeAndre Jordan in the first round and LR Mbah a Moute in the second and gotten two rotation players.

2009 wasn't much better given that we passed on Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Taj Gibson and Darren Collison to take Austin Daye and took DaJuan Summers over DeJuan Blair. Picking up Jonas Jerebko was our only saving grace that year.

Austin Daye may or may not develop but all of the guys I've mentioned are impact players on winning teams right now and Daye's 4-11 game is cause for celebration on a day we take the loss. The kid has a miles and miles and miles to go before he catches up with any of the guys we passed on.

I've gotta go or I'm not going to make my lunch date but I want to go on record now. 1) We'll win a close game 2) Greg Monroe will finish with at least 15 10 and 5 3) Austin Daye will be more or less a non-factor 4) Brandon Knight will not turn the ball over. That last one is bold but I'm hopeful.

Looking at my prediction I feel pretty good, we lost a close game instead of winning one but otherwise I was right on. Monroe fell short of my measure by one assist but both he and Brandon Knight played very well and basically made me look smart. Austin Daye well I'll leave that to y'all to decide.

Kstat · 01-28-2012, 01:28 AM

I'll keep it real too. There are no really bad mistakes in the 2nd round.

Every player picked has already been passed up at least 30 times.

Inbetweengame · 01-28-2012, 02:44 AM

Real(ly) wrong. Ha, ha. And the Austin Daye mistake was a first round mistake.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-28-2012, 12:16 PM

I don't remember anyone at the time talking about Jordan, but Mbah a Moute was discussed a lot.

Walter Sharpe...he was narcoleptic and a PF. The bad thing on him was he was picked at 32 which is virtually a late 1st Round pick.

People were clamoring for Prince to be traded to Dallas for a late 1st last year...well picks in that range are a huge roll of the dice. It looks like Sharpe is still playing in the D-League by the way.

Hobbs · 01-28-2012, 12:46 PM

We had a first round pick but traded into the second round to take Sharpe and that guy with arms shorter than Kevin Willis. I was dying for us to pick Jordan.

I don't think Dumars liked anyone in that draft and did the best he could to get out of it. Jordan had some very pronounced red flags and Luc was a guy without a position and minimal offense.

You are not going to get everything right when you draft.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-28-2012, 12:54 PM

Yeah...Luc was mainly a rebounder and defender at UCLA and got his points on put-backs.

Who knows if Deandre Jordan develops here too?

Kstat · 01-28-2012, 02:23 PM

Deandre Jordan was a disinterested 8 and 6 guy at texas A& M. That's why 34 teams passed him up.

He's worked out great for the Clips, but he still has major holes in his games that are masked by Blake Griffin. Let's not pretend like he was some great prospect that Dumars passed on.

Mainevent · 01-28-2012, 02:35 PM

There were a number of people calling for Jordan that night, he was the type of player worth the gamble. At least if you're going to gamble, why not do it on an athletic big man rather than a narcoleptic SF who'd flunked out of 2 schools (for whatever reasons). The Sharpe pick still completely baffles me.

I completely forgot about the Plaisted pick.

Kstat · 01-28-2012, 02:44 PM

There were a number of people that were furious we didn't go after Keith Benson this year, too. He's playing in South Dakota right now if you need him.

Let's not pretend that every prospect the forum falls in love with is a future NBA star, as if that should be some evidence Joe D needed to pick him up.

Vernon Macklin at least still has an NBA job.

As for Sharpe, he was obviously a wasted pick. But the 2nd round will always be a crapshoot. Hard to demand %100 accuracy there.

Mainevent · 01-28-2012, 03:34 PM

Macklin has a job because he was picked and plays for one of the worst teams in the league.

The 2nd round is a crapshoot for sure. It doesn't mean you can't look back at picks that looked shitty at the time and turned out shitty in the end. There just wasn't much logic in that Sharpe pick that year, especially given Jordan had as much or more upside and a much better fit as a big man.

Dumars has had his share of wins in the late first and second round, he's probably more on + side of that ledger than most in the past decade. He still boned that one.

Mel Kiper Jr · 01-28-2012, 03:35 PM

I remember the outrage over the Afflalo pick too. It was classic.

People were saying we drafted a poor mans Bruce Bowen or Raja Bell. Dude was Pac 10 player of the year when that conference was loaded. He was good.

Kstat · 01-28-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mainevent

Macklin has a job because he was picked and plays for one of the worst teams in the league.

...and Keith Benson lost his job to a guy that got banned from the Korean basketball league.

Inbetweengame · 01-29-2012, 06:44 AM

No one is saying you need to draft future stars in the second round that's hard to do even in the first round. What I don't like is the track record of missing on guys that didn't have much upside like Walter Sharpe especially when there were two good options at our pick. Why not gamble on the big fella or pick the solid guy with a slightly lower ceiling?

Kstat · 01-29-2012, 07:24 AM

Walter Sharpe didn't have upside? That's very easy to say in hindsight, but not true at all. Sharpe was a typical all or nothing draft pick. 6'9" 240 lb athletic small forward that was lazy and flunked out of college.

Deandre Jordan was a 7-foot lazy slob with a very low bball IQ that got his ass handed to him at texas A&M.

One guy chose to work for his career, the other guy kept on being a lazy slob. Not going to fault Joe for that, though there were safer players on the board. He went for the home run, which is fine in the 2nd round.

Sorry, but every 2nd round pick has warts. The more talented the player, the bigger the warts are. Pretending like it was obvious at the time Sharpe was going to wash out and Jordan was going to be a legit player is foolhardy.

If Joe had gambled on Devon Hardin or Sasha Kaun instead of Sharpe, would you be any more forgiving?

Hobbs · 01-29-2012, 09:04 AM

Sharpe definitely had potential. I believe he was a McDonalds all american that went bad. His condition was recently discovered and there was some hype that he had refound his game because of that.

Dumars record in the second round is about as good as it gets. A very high percentage of the picks end up with a couple of years in the NBA at least whereas most second rounders don't achieve that.

B.I.G. · 01-29-2012, 09:11 AM

I actually trust Joe Dumars second round picks than 1st round. Dude been finding some gems in the second round. He can't get them all right though. This draft we should pick high in the second round. I think Draymond Green would be a good pick. He does everything on the court, he's small and won't have a real position in the NBA but I love his leadership skills and we need that so badly.

Mainevent · 01-29-2012, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Deandre Jordan was a 7-foot lazy slob with a very low bball IQ that got his ass handed to him at texas A&M.

1 freshman season fully defines a player, i guess.

Kstat · 01-29-2012, 09:01 PM

you can make that same argument for sharpe.

BTW, Jordan would be nowhere close to as productive without blake griffin. The only thing that's changed about Jordan is his work ethic. Still a very low IQ, still unskilled as shit, and still offensively inept.

Inbetweengame · 01-30-2012, 09:02 AM

And still, sadly much better than any of our big men other than Greg Monroe.

ThaMaestro · 01-30-2012, 01:21 PM

Jordan was expected to take a big leap this season, from what I have seen he hasn't really improved all that much. The guy has the physical gifts to be dominate, but I think KStat is right about his bball IQ being very low.

tin mad dog · 01-30-2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThaMaestro

Jordan was expected to take a big leap this season, from what I have seen he hasn't really improved all that much. The guy has the physical gifts to be dominate, but I think KStat is right about his bball IQ being very low.

I don't know, Maestro. I think he's kind of doing what they need him to do. They have plenty of scorers in Griffin, Paul, Billups, Williams and Butler.

Jordan is only taking 5 shots a game but he's shooting 66% from the field, getting almost 9 rebounds and over 3 blocks a game.

He may not be doing it at quite the same level but it sounds like he's filling the Ben Wallace role quite well for them.

He's not a gifted scorer with an array of post moves but he'd probably be a 14/11/3 guy on our team.

Kstat · 01-30-2012, 07:12 PM

He's doing what they need him to do because that happens to overlap with the only things he can do.

On a team without a super-gifted passing dominant PF, he goes back to being a mediocre center, which is what he was before Blake griffin got there.

tin mad dog · 01-30-2012, 07:15 PM

A 20 year old player getting 16 mins a game, playing behind Chris Kaman?

Kstat · 01-30-2012, 07:18 PM

His game hasn't changed much since then. He's in much better shape and his man is constantly leaving him open to help out on Blake Griffin. That's all.

hack · 01-31-2012, 07:13 AM

He's second in the league in blocks. He's at 3.06. Javale McGee is at 3.14. Ibaka, third, is at 2.4.

01-28-2012, 01:15 AM	#101
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Thank you Forsh for keeping it real, let's keep it really real. Walter Sharpe over DeAndre Jordan and LR Mbah a Moute was a horrible, horrible mistake both of those guys are real NBA players and Sharpe never developed. So 2008 was a rough year. We could've had DeAndre Jordan in the first round and LR Mbah a Moute in the second and gotten two rotation players. 2009 wasn't much better given that we passed on Jrue Holiday, Ty Lawson, Taj Gibson and Darren Collison to take Austin Daye and took DaJuan Summers over DeJuan Blair. Picking up Jonas Jerebko was our only saving grace that year. Austin Daye may or may not develop but all of the guys I've mentioned are impact players on winning teams right now and Daye's 4-11 game is cause for celebration on a day we take the loss. The kid has a miles and miles and miles to go before he catches up with any of the guys we passed on. I've gotta go or I'm not going to make my lunch date but I want to go on record now. 1) We'll win a close game 2) Greg Monroe will finish with at least 15 10 and 5 3) Austin Daye will be more or less a non-factor 4) Brandon Knight will not turn the ball over. That last one is bold but I'm hopeful. Looking at my prediction I feel pretty good, we lost a close game instead of winning one but otherwise I was right on. Monroe fell short of my measure by one assist but both he and Brandon Knight played very well and basically made me look smart. Austin Daye well I'll leave that to y'all to decide. Last edited by Inbetweengame; 01-28-2012 at 01:21 AM. Reason: Spelling error.

01-28-2012, 02:44 PM	#109
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	There were a number of people that were furious we didn't go after Keith Benson this year, too. He's playing in South Dakota right now if you need him. Let's not pretend that every prospect the forum falls in love with is a future NBA star, as if that should be some evidence Joe D needed to pick him up. Vernon Macklin at least still has an NBA job. As for Sharpe, he was obviously a wasted pick. But the 2nd round will always be a crapshoot. Hard to demand %100 accuracy there. Last edited by Kstat; 01-28-2012 at 02:49 PM.

01-29-2012, 07:24 AM	#114
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Walter Sharpe didn't have upside? That's very easy to say in hindsight, but not true at all. Sharpe was a typical all or nothing draft pick. 6'9" 240 lb athletic small forward that was lazy and flunked out of college. Deandre Jordan was a 7-foot lazy slob with a very low bball IQ that got his ass handed to him at texas A&M. One guy chose to work for his career, the other guy kept on being a lazy slob. Not going to fault Joe for that, though there were safer players on the board. He went for the home run, which is fine in the 2nd round. Sorry, but every 2nd round pick has warts. The more talented the player, the bigger the warts are. Pretending like it was obvious at the time Sharpe was going to wash out and Jordan was going to be a legit player is foolhardy. If Joe had gambled on Devon Hardin or Sasha Kaun instead of Sharpe, would you be any more forgiving? Last edited by Kstat; 01-29-2012 at 07:33 AM.

01-30-2012, 07:15 PM	#123
tin mad dog Starter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Long Island City, NY Posts: 9,789 : 0 For This Post 1 Total	A 20 year old player getting 16 mins a game, playing behind Chris Kaman? __________________ 2011- Oh Bismack, where art thou?

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01-28-2012, 01:28 AM	#102
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I'll keep it real too. There are no really bad mistakes in the 2nd round. Every player picked has already been passed up at least 30 times.

01-28-2012, 02:44 AM	#103
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Real(ly) wrong. Ha, ha. And the Austin Daye mistake was a first round mistake.

01-28-2012, 12:16 PM	#104
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I don't remember anyone at the time talking about Jordan, but Mbah a Moute was discussed a lot. Walter Sharpe...he was narcoleptic and a PF. The bad thing on him was he was picked at 32 which is virtually a late 1st Round pick. People were clamoring for Prince to be traded to Dallas for a late 1st last year...well picks in that range are a huge roll of the dice. It looks like Sharpe is still playing in the D-League by the way.

01-28-2012, 12:46 PM	#105
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	We had a first round pick but traded into the second round to take Sharpe and that guy with arms shorter than Kevin Willis. I was dying for us to pick Jordan. I don't think Dumars liked anyone in that draft and did the best he could to get out of it. Jordan had some very pronounced red flags and Luc was a guy without a position and minimal offense. You are not going to get everything right when you draft.

01-28-2012, 12:54 PM	#106
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Yeah...Luc was mainly a rebounder and defender at UCLA and got his points on put-backs. Who knows if Deandre Jordan develops here too?

01-28-2012, 02:23 PM	#107
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Deandre Jordan was a disinterested 8 and 6 guy at texas A& M. That's why 34 teams passed him up. He's worked out great for the Clips, but he still has major holes in his games that are masked by Blake Griffin. Let's not pretend like he was some great prospect that Dumars passed on.

01-28-2012, 02:35 PM	#108
Mainevent Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,321 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	There were a number of people calling for Jordan that night, he was the type of player worth the gamble. At least if you're going to gamble, why not do it on an athletic big man rather than a narcoleptic SF who'd flunked out of 2 schools (for whatever reasons). The Sharpe pick still completely baffles me. I completely forgot about the Plaisted pick.

01-28-2012, 03:34 PM	#110
Mainevent Bench Player Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,321 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Macklin has a job because he was picked and plays for one of the worst teams in the league. The 2nd round is a crapshoot for sure. It doesn't mean you can't look back at picks that looked shitty at the time and turned out shitty in the end. There just wasn't much logic in that Sharpe pick that year, especially given Jordan had as much or more upside and a much better fit as a big man. Dumars has had his share of wins in the late first and second round, he's probably more on + side of that ledger than most in the past decade. He still boned that one.

01-28-2012, 03:35 PM	#111
Mel Kiper Jr Bench Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,349 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	I remember the outrage over the Afflalo pick too. It was classic. People were saying we drafted a poor mans Bruce Bowen or Raja Bell. Dude was Pac 10 player of the year when that conference was loaded. He was good.

01-29-2012, 06:44 AM	#113
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	No one is saying you need to draft future stars in the second round that's hard to do even in the first round. What I don't like is the track record of missing on guys that didn't have much upside like Walter Sharpe especially when there were two good options at our pick. Why not gamble on the big fella or pick the solid guy with a slightly lower ceiling?

01-29-2012, 09:04 AM	#115
Hobbs Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,006 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Sharpe definitely had potential. I believe he was a McDonalds all american that went bad. His condition was recently discovered and there was some hype that he had refound his game because of that. Dumars record in the second round is about as good as it gets. A very high percentage of the picks end up with a couple of years in the NBA at least whereas most second rounders don't achieve that.

01-29-2012, 09:11 AM	#116
B.I.G. Water Boy Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 846 : 0 For This Post 3 Total	I actually trust Joe Dumars second round picks than 1st round. Dude been finding some gems in the second round. He can't get them all right though. This draft we should pick high in the second round. I think Draymond Green would be a good pick. He does everything on the court, he's small and won't have a real position in the NBA but I love his leadership skills and we need that so badly.

01-29-2012, 09:01 PM	#118
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	you can make that same argument for sharpe. BTW, Jordan would be nowhere close to as productive without blake griffin. The only thing that's changed about Jordan is his work ethic. Still a very low IQ, still unskilled as shit, and still offensively inept.

01-30-2012, 09:02 AM	#119
Inbetweengame Water Boy Join Date: May 2009 Location: Taichung, Taiwan Posts: 931 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	And still, sadly much better than any of our big men other than Greg Monroe.

01-30-2012, 01:21 PM	#120
ThaMaestro Bench Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flinttown Representin' Posts: 1,394 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	Jordan was expected to take a big leap this season, from what I have seen he hasn't really improved all that much. The guy has the physical gifts to be dominate, but I think KStat is right about his bball IQ being very low.

01-30-2012, 07:12 PM	#122
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	He's doing what they need him to do because that happens to overlap with the only things he can do. On a team without a super-gifted passing dominant PF, he goes back to being a mediocre center, which is what he was before Blake griffin got there.

01-30-2012, 07:18 PM	#124
Kstat Sixth Man Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 6,245 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	His game hasn't changed much since then. He's in much better shape and his man is constantly leaving him open to help out on Blake Griffin. That's all.

01-31-2012, 07:13 AM	#125
hack Starter Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 11,065 : 0 For This Post 0 Total	He's second in the league in blocks. He's at 3.06. Javale McGee is at 3.14. Ibaka, third, is at 2.4.