[hack]

Howdy all. Been away for a coupla days, and home now to a two-week parental visit. Won't be around much. Can someone give me a brief recap of rumors/developments/scenarios for our rebuild? Any snippets of info leaked out in the past five days about what Joe's gonna go, or where our guys might be headed?

[mn3]

There are none.

[THE PISTONS]

Gortat or bust. Or is it Gortat and bust?

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by hack

Howdy all. Been away for a coupla days, and home now to a two-week parental visit. Won't be around much. Can someone give me a brief recap of rumors/developments/scenarios for our rebuild? Any snippets of info leaked out in the past five days about what Joe's gonna go, or where our guys might be headed?

Stuckey still may be a combo guard. We are gathering evidence from experts as we speak.

Joe D will work out a bunch of deep bench role players and has no plans of making any deals, mostly because the phone in his office only recieves calls. He can't dial out.

Newman was cured of his dumbness but Rush Limbaugh sent republican agents to his house and injected him with a new formula that made him even dumber than before.

[THE PISTONS]

Really no news that seems credible.

I've read that the Cavs like Chandler. They are in a playoff run and have swept 2 series. I'm sure that they are looking at roster moves for next season.

[mn3]

Dynomite plumbed new depths of assholeness.

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by mn3

Dynomite plumbed new depths of assholeness.

1.0

You don't know how high I can fly.

[ThaMaestro]

Newman is the wind beneath Dyno's wings.

[hack]

Totally true, in the sense that now that Newman has gotten to Dyno, he rarely posts without making a Newman reference now.

[Inbetweengame]

Word to Dynomite, shit is sad son. Your Newman obsession is straight pathetic. Like Huggy bared said to Hutch, "Time was around here when you pissed up against a wall you did it outside."

[hack]

I dunno what that means, but the older Dyno, more playful and less topical, was also a fun poster.

[THE PISTONS]

The haters make Newman famous.

[Joe_Loco]

ESPN had a big "Outside the Lines" article about the Billups trade, with Billups as a great guy and Pistons management as meanies. Cameo appearances during the trade announcement by a crushed Rip Hamilton and conferenced-in Ben Wallace, crowing about "that's what they do" despite the fact that HE left voluntarily for insane money that he hasn't come close to earning.

[THE PISTONS]

Yes they aren't the same team that overpaid Jud Bucheler just because they promised him they would. Oh wait...they are the same management.

[DYNOMITE]

Originally Posted by hack

I dunno what that means, but the older Dyno, more playful and less topical, was also a fun poster.

I am the older Dyno. Once Newman took it to the political forum (if we had kept it in the Palace where it belongs he never would have posted there) my dislike for him had risen to a new level. I am only interested in discussing the possibility of getting Caron Butler for nothing for so long. I pop in here a few times a day and because of his volume of posting, Newman usually has the last word on one or more threads. I hate that fucker, make no mistake about it.

[Joe_Loco]

Yes they aren't the same team that overpaid Jud Bucheler just because they promised him they would. Oh wait...they are the same management.

Paid Jud. Paid Cliffy, too. Then got good value for both of them.

No matter what the articles say, Joe will get his good soldiers their money. But that comes with an understanding of how the business works, and lifetime employment ain't part of it.

[THE PISTONS]

Supposedly they offerred Ben a contract that would have been market value...just not top dollar.

[bozo the clown]

We did, and thank goodness he didn't take it.

[tin mad dog]

Yes, we did offer Ben to be the highest paid Piston in their history. I think he's still trippin'. He also may be winning his 2nd ring, albeit as a 7th banana.

[Jangul]

Originally Posted by Inbetweengame

Word to Dynomite, shit is sad son. Your Newman obsession is straight pathetic. Like Huggy bared said to Hutch, "Time was around here when you pissed up against a wall you did it outside."

That make me chuckle audibly. My name is Jangul Powell and I approve that message.

[Orwellian O.]

That Billups article on ESPN was really good. I don't think it really shows Detroit in a bad light. Unless you mean how it makes Rip come off as emo and Ben mentioning how Detroit did him wrong (dude got major money to play little...might even get another title out of it...don't see why he is complaining).

[tin mad dog]

Hey, I like the fact that Rip and Tay got upset. A team that wins is nice but a team that wins and are friends is even better. Look at the good time that the Cavs are having together. When you care about who you are playing with, You are willing to do more for them.

[bozo the clown]

I think I somewhat agree, though Rip seemed to go overboard. That's what made the team special during their run, but also what probably prevented them from excelling later. Like a long marriage, it tends to get comfy and a bit stale after a while with the same players being too familiar with each other. It allows them to tune out coaches and make excuses when they could make improvements in their game.

[TJPiston]

Yup. Agreed.

The Chauncey article was a great read but I've seen similar quotes in earlier articles (from November) and they sounded differently at the time.

Ben Wallace's comment is ridiculous. Ben we offered you more than enough (12M/season). Glad you didn't take it because you aren't worth half of that right now. I don't understand where Ben's bitterness comes from.

Ben's quote in the local paper after the trade was, "First you now me." Chauncey responded to Ben by saying that he wanted to retire a Piston and Ben decided to leave on his own.

Ben's quote in the Chauncey/ESPN article has a totally diff. slant. "I told you how they were." What's that supposed to mean Ben?

Joe has always taken care of his guys and OVERPAID, if anything. I don't like the organizations rep being slighted in the media.

[bozo the clown]

Screw Ben. He's an asshole. If he spouts that kind of crap, then everyone can see it more easily.

[hack]

The story was pretty much 100% fawning. ``Chauncey can run Flip's offense with his eyes closed, but the team never made it past the ECF" -- on the surface, true. But no mention of how Chauncey's turnovers suddenly soared in the playoffs, his scoring dropped, and he started to get toasted by Boobie Gibsons. Regardless of who you blame for that, it's a huge part of the Chauncey story. There was nothing that indicated that the writer tried to get Joe's side of the story, unless I missed a ``Dumars wouldn't comment'' line somewhere in there. And the taking techs for younger players, or telling them to blow off ref-based anger -- we didn't see that here. I'm not picking on Chauncey -- I'd love to see a Nugs/Cavs finals, so one of our old guys can get another ring, but this story goes pretty far overboard in stating Chauncey's case.

[JMab]

Ben Wallace is a tool.

There, I said it.

[hack]

Yeah, that was ridiculous. These guys want/wanted to have their cake and eat it too, which is part of why I think that as much as Rip's got left in his tank, and as good as he is, he needs a change of scenery just like Chauncey did. McCosky's rebuttal in the News today shared a previously unknown tidbit, which is that Joe gave Rip a chance to back out on his extension after the trade was announced.

[bozo the clown]

Agree about Chauncey, Hack. I am happy and excited for what he is doing. He was a champ here in our prime years, but he wouldn't be doing the same thing here that he is doing in Denver today. He got a fresh start and took full advantage of it. Bravo for him.

That said, the irony is that we're still worse off without him.

[Stefan S]

Originally Posted by hack

There was nothing that indicated that the writer tried to get Joe's side of the story, unless I missed a ``Dumars wouldn't comment'' line somewhere in there.

Good call, Hack. It would be great to see Dumars' perspective, too.

Originally Posted by hack

And the taking techs for younger players, or telling them to blow off ref-based anger -- we didn't see that here.

I'm not so sure. Either way, he surely had a stabilazing influence both on Rip and on Prince. (Sheed really seemed to go overboard a few years ago and I doubt anyone could influence him.)

[Stefan S]

Ben is a sad story.

I thought that he was the ultimate warrior-team player, who made himself into an all-star player through extremely hard work despite of the fact that his talent was so limited. Most of the guys who start with Ben's talents end up on teh bench, if they even make a roster. That's why I bough his jersey, to honor the ultimate underdog.

To be a team, everyone has to sacrifice a bit.

Yet he decided to go for much more money and ultimately undermined the team.

It's hard to root for him and give him much love.
(And I have no idea what to do with his jersey.)

[TJPiston]

Sometime between the 2005 and 2006 season, Ben's ego grew a ton.

The guy was revered here for his humble, ah sucks, going to work attitude.

I can't believe how much the guy changed.

Refusing to come into the regular season game vs. Orlando was a big deal. It was downplayed at the time but showing up the coach like that as the leader of the team means a lot. Even Rasheed thought Ben was nuts for doing that on a team that was chasing 70 wins.

Throwing Flip under the bus and having an offensive meltdown of epic proportions wasn't cool either.

[Money23]

It took quite a while for Flip to get control again after that stupidity of Ben's. Not so sure if he ever really had Rasheed on board, especially after that.

Hack, great points:

But no mention of how Chauncey's turnovers suddenly soared in the playoffs, his scoring dropped, and he started to get toasted by Boobie Gibsons.

[ghandi]

"I am happy and excited for what he is doing. He was a champ here in our prime years, but he wouldn't be doing the same thing here that he is doing in Denver today. He got a fresh start and took full advantage of it. Bravo for him."

Yeah I agree chauncey needed a change of scenery....he looks like a reborn player......He plays totally different in Denver than he did in Detroit his last 2 years.....YOu could count on one hand the number of times he would take his man off the dribble and get a layup before he went to Denver....Also the Pistons almost never had any fast breaks and he almost always walked the ball up.......Like some of the previous posts said Chauncey (and several other vets) just looked like they had fallen into a rut (or routine) here and we were as good as we were going to get....Even if we had kept Chauncey we had no chance of beating Cleveland......

[hack]

It took quite a while for Flip to get control again after that stupidity of Ben's. Not so sure if he ever really had Rasheed on board, especially after that.

Was that before or after Flip tried to bench Sheed and Dice didn't want to start in Sheed's place? IMO Flip never had control and never even had a shot at it. He came in saying he would let them do their thing on defense, so he'd already surrendered control half the time, roughly speaking. Furthermore, he implied that these guys were a self-policing lockerroom in terms of effort when in reality the opposite was true. Massive mistake made there.

[Jeff Hause]

Please shut up...

(Thanks for opening up this stupid-ass diatribe again, Money...)

[Jeff Hause]

Again, moron... this season? "MASSIVE MISTAKE." Conference Finals seasons? Not so much.

[Whisper]

Originally Posted by hack

It took quite a while for Flip to get control again after that stupidity of Ben's. Not so sure if he ever really had Rasheed on board, especially after that.

Was that before or after Flip tried to bench Sheed and Dice didn't want to start in Sheed's place? IMO Flip never had control and never even had a shot at it. He came in saying he would let them do their thing on defense, so he'd already surrendered control half the time, roughly speaking. Furthermore, he implied that these guys were a self-policing lockerroom in terms of effort when in reality the opposite was true. Massive mistake made there.

If I'm remembering correctly, and I think I am, it was Joe who told Flip that they were self-policing. The guys were very loose, horsing around with each other in practice and Flip asked Joe what that was about and Joe told him that that's the way they'd always been and that come game time, they'd lock in. Seems to me Joe was a co-conspirator.

[hack]

Yes, he was. Both should have known better.

[Jeff Hause]

Gosh, that almost insinuates that they were doing it under Larry Brown... in fact, it DOES...

[mn3]

How about this theory?: This team has been, for several years, uncoachable and that grew in time as the guys got older and less capable as athletes. Brown, Flip, Curry - it just didn't matter, this team was going down, down, down.

[Jeff Hause]

Down to the conference finals and 59 wins. Nice job breaking THAT up, Joe...

[Money23]

The point is that the team would NEVER have been 39 wins, swept in first round under Flip. I know even Hack won't argue that much. I think so, at least.

[Money23]

Originally Posted by hack

He came in saying he would let them do their thing on defense, so he'd already surrendered control half the time, roughly speaking

Nah, that was just public coach speak and his way of acknowledging that they knew what they were doing when he got there. Nothing really unusual about that.

I think after Ben left, Flip was pretty solidly in control. 59 wins and a hard fought series to a more talented eventual champion seems to bear that out at least somewhat.

Before this past season, 10 playoff wins was considered a failure in the forum by some. Now, we've suffered through an abysmal team with an abysmal coach and I like the contender "stigma" MUCH more, personally.

[hack]

No it wasn't. That was feeding the bloated ego of a group that instead needed to be knocked down a peg or two. Flip knows Xs and Os extremely well but very little about the less concrete side of his job. He does not know how to gain and maintain the respect of players. The end of the ``after Ben left season'', if that's what you mean, was that in a nutshell -- four straight losses, Sheed trying to overrule Flip on defense, and Chris Webber screaming at Flip on the sidelines -- ``Let me play my game!'' Whether these players were right or wrong is not the point -- that Flip never had control was the point. He lacked the ability to get our players to buy into his system.

That said, your previous post was right -- of course we would have done better this year with Flip. He's great at getting regular-season wins, and we wouldn't have been stuck playing Cleveland. The price you pay with Flip is that his teams are much better in January than in May. And, while he looks good now, that's more because Joe made a legendarily bad coaching hire than due to Flip's competence. Had Joe made a decent hire, this discussion is very different.

[Money23]

I still disagree, though I will relent some. I believe that by his THIRD year, it was more Flip's team than anyone else's (even if it's addition by subtraction to achieve the goal). Also, I think they played some pretty good playoff ball that season, and simply ran into a better team (it happens to the best).

Also, I believe that the exact same roster would not have been swept by Cleveland with Flip here, and I think Iverson would have wound up playing it out. I can't prove that, of course, but based on the previous season, I don't think it's entirely too much of a stretch.

[Money23]

I think he learned a lot by the end of the third season, and I bet the Wiz are around 5 or 6 seed as soon as next season barring significant injury to key players.

[hack]

Yes, last year seemed the first in which Flip's presence wasn't a negative. Everything seemed great until that ECF Game 3 mail-in, and I was even ready to say that I wouldn't have minded Flip sticking around. Then there were also the strange stories about Sheed's odd temperment before Game 6, etc. We don't know what happened there. Boston by the end of that series was definitely the better team, but not at the beginning of that series. But their formative moment, like our Game 7 over the Nets in 2004, was beating us in that Game 3 and getting their first playoff road win. We slept through that game. A real contender would have known that going up 3-1 against that team, with Ray Allen an 0-for-playoffs and them winless on the road, would have been the best opportunity to win that series and get to the finals. And, flipside, letting them back in it at 2-2 and surrendering HCA to them would have been an equal momentum swing back in their favour.

It's not Flip's fault that our guys were better at flip switching than anything else. It would have been nice if Flip did something about it, but that's not the kind of coach he is. This sums up Flip -- he's a decent coach, and good for a team that wants to achieve a baseline level of competence and make the playoffs, as I'm sure the Wizards might next year. He's not the kind of coach you want leading a contender, however. Joe made a horrible decision in 2005. It seems Joe based it on taking for granted our tough-guy defense, and figured Flip would fix the offense. The lesson is that you never take for granted defense and effort (which is why LB was still coaching hard even when we were 3 minutes away from our 04 rings). Joe did, and hired the wrong guy.

[Money23]

Originally Posted by hack

Boston by the end of that series was definitely the better team, but not at the beginning of that series.

Disagree. They were the best and maybe even more importantly, most talented team in the playoffs from game one.

Originally Posted by hack

The lesson is that you never take for granted defense and effort (which is why LB was still coaching hard even when we were 3 minutes away from our 04 rings). Joe did, and hired the wrong guy.

Nah, Flip was a fine hire. Not a failure at all, in my book. The wrong hire was without a doubt MC DoSomeStuff. To keep that guy on for another year...I don't know. I'm amazed by that decision.

Over his tenure here, I saw Flip do what you once thought was crazy for me to be able to predict based on prior knowledge, and that was IMPROVE as a coach. Pretty much every aspect of his coaching improved, from the way he adapted in game to his development of young players to his playoff coaching, which was MUCH better in his third season. I believe he will wind up just like LB someday, taking a great team to a Finals victory. After many years of getting better and learning, just as LB did, only without the self serving press conferences, blameless deer in the headlights "let the players take the heat" stance, and overly dramatic gahbage. Talk about a coach folding on a big stage. I'll never know how you can forgive LB for that Spurs series debacle, glossing over it as if it somehow doesn't count as a part of LB's legacy. He cost the team a title with his disinterest. Great coaches coach until the last minutes of a game indeed.

And I'm not baiting you here, I really believe that Flip is a step away from being a great coach and will probably take that step with the right team eventually, just as LB did when he lucked into Joe trading for Rasheed here.

[hack]

1. Boston was by far the most talented, but they weren't the best team yet. They hadn't even won on the friggin road. They arrived at best-team status in the ECF.

2. Not a failure? -- can't even honor that one with a counter-argument.

3. I agree that the playoffs slowed down for Flip, to the point where he improved his game-to-game tactics and his in-game moves. As I said, he was not a net negative last year. It's now a stage he's finally, after 13 years, comfortable on. But, even if he suddenly developed a feel for how to use his authority (a part that has not improved), the fundamental flaws in his approach to the game are fatal. You win in the paint, and Flip doesn't get that. Plus, he's already said post-Wiz hire that his time in Detroit reinforced what he thought he already knew. Flip improved as he got used to the spotlight, but he seems to lack the curiosity required to really evaluate his teams' performances, or compare what champions do to what he does so as to note the differences. As for whether Flip is a step away from greatness, well, we could compare pre-Pistons LB and note what we find -- we've gone over that a million times. I suppose there's a chance that Flip could land the right job and ride LeBron's coattails if he tried to be the Phil Jackson (the Gary Payton of coaching), but if you wanna bet Flip will win a ring as a headcoach, I'll take that bet. An open-ended bet, obviously, but we'll be here in a few years time.

4. No excuses for LB. He was a big factor in costing us a second ring, and his legacy here is almost as bitter as it is sweet. But time's proved me right -- a mentally checked-out LB is better than a fully committed Flip Saunders. You hire a coach to coach, not to be a good person. Just like Sheed, you take the good with the bad. We won a ring, and we paid the price for doing it with a coupla iffy characters. Still -- we won a ring, and that's the point.